Fish (August 2001)

Sunsets On Brussels

Speaking to Fish always is a pleasure because he's one of those artists that's a treat to any journalist. Ask him a question and fifteen minutes later he's already telling you story number twelve before you found the time to ask another question! Hey, as long as it remains interesting. So let's see what the big man has to say on the eve of the release of his new studio album Sunsets On Empire.

John "Bobo" Bollenberg: A lot of eager fans were already labeling you as the "recycling-artist" what with re-releasing so many "old" tracks such as the acoustic CD, the live album, the Yin and Yang compilations ...

Fish: It was necessary at the time for the simple reason that it's a hell more complicated being an artist in the nineties than it was when I first climbed the stage with Marillion! I now run an indie company, I don't have a major company that I can ring to and say: "sorry it's raining outside can I have some money to buy an umbrella?" I formed Dick Bros [Fish's own record company and "firm" - BoBo] in 1993 and I simply didn't have the capital to record a new album! I was doing a lot of gigs to support myself and my family and from that a lot of bad quality bootlegs inundated the scene. I think I must have around fifty or sixty bootlegs between myself and Marillion, all of which I wasn't paid one single penny for! As a way to get some money together I released Sushi and Sushi funded Suits, to pay for the session musicians, it's that simple. At the same time I released [the live CDs] Pigpen's Birthday and Uncle Fish & The Crypt Creepers over in America. When we go on the road, merchandising plays a very important role! To be honest I can tell you that the tour would've been cut in half last time around if we didn't have any merchandise to sell!

JB: Does this mean that, if you plan to do a tour, you sit around the table and calculate how much everything's going to cost and how much you can recuperate through merchandising?

F: Exactly. We do horrible things like cash flows. Obviously you get more money doing festivals but I'm simply not the "arena"-type guy [nice one, Fish -BoBo] you know, so I have to settle for much less doing the club circuit. But I like it. However, going on tour doesn't give you any guarantees. Last time around David Paton suddenly quit the band in the middle of a tour. I was on the road for three and a half months and I didn't make any money at all! OK, the musicians were paid, the crew was paid and all the other people and services whom I hired, but I did it all for nothing! In the end, the only way I can recuperate some of my investment is my issuing those live albums. But hey, no one will stand behind you with a 9mm pistol in the back of your head "asking" you to buy an album. I try each show to be so magnificent, people will almost automatically buy an album because it will remind them of a fantastic night out. That's what it's all about: having a great time!

JB: Can you tell us something about the Krakow album?

F: We go to Poland and get the opportunity to do TV. There's a seven camera shoot which is a thing that never happened in my entire solo career. The last professional thing that was done dates from 1987 and was the Lorelei thing [Live From Lorelei video -ed.]. When we were offered the possibility to buy the film I thought it was an ideal way of promotion. We had to go to Poland, buy the film for a staggering 14,000, bring the tape back. I flew back to Poland to pick up the two inch tapes, bring them back as well, remix them, asked some of the musicians back in the studio to redo some of the material, for the recording at times was really bad. Then I had to take all of this stuff into a television studio in Edinburgh and edit it down to an hour.

Right now, around 98% of all television companies won't pay any money at all for these videos because they think that it's promotion for our album(s) so they say: "why should we pay you for your promotion? If you want your video played, then you have to pay us!" So if I put all the bits and pieces together this video will have cost me €25,000!

Now we have to recover those costs and we won't recover it through TV so the only way to do so is by releasing a live album. Because the end result of the recording was so good I edited the album down to about an hour and sent it out to radio stations all over the world. In all a total of a thousand CD-edits were mailed out, so that comes into the budget as well! OK, it's good promotion but as a small independent company you still have to pay for it!

JB: You sort of want put bootleggers out of a job?

F: That's right. I mean, they don't pay me for my work anyhow and on top of that, they are asking my fans a huge amount of money for lousy product. So I thought it would be a good idea to release my own legal "bootlegs" of a far superior quality for a much more interesting price. I think the double albums come down to something like €14! If you buy one of those dodgy releases at a record fair then you have to know there's sometimes five or six people handling this product each adding their 20% commission so you end up paying €20 at least for a pile of crap!

JB: Do you have an idea of the number of copies you sell of these albums?

F: I don't know for all of them but the Pigpen's Birthday one we sold about 40,000 copies worldwide, which is not at all bad for an independent release. The Fish Head Curry album recorded in a small club in Luzern was only released as a 5000 numbered copies release. So imagine when I'm dead: this album could change hands for say €100 although initially the punter only paid the regular fee for it.

JB: So what's the big difference between an indie-operated company like Dick Bros and a major?

F: I have to use guerrilla-type tactics ALL the time in order to be noticed. You said Yin and Yang were sort of recycled material, and in a way you're right, but don't forget it offered us a tour which brought us to Brazil, Chili, Argentina, South-Africa, Singapore, Hong Kong, Turkey. The contacts I made during this tour is vital for the new album 'coz now I can guarantee Sunsets On Empire to be a worldwide release. When you sign to a major you get a window of opportunity of say eight weeks. If during those eight weeks nothing happens then you can forget the whole thing: they will drop you from the label instantly. When you're an artist at heart like I am, you can't just chuck away an album on which you've worked for one and a half years!

JB: I remember speaking to you in '93 and you telling me that the then forthcoming new studio album Suits would be the best thing you'd done in your life ...

F: Well you should say that, shouldn't you? I mean, it has to be rather strange if I was doing promotion for the new album and telling everyone that I've just released the worst album in the history of recorded music! Of course I was enthusiastic at the time, but looking back at it from a distance, I have to confess that the album was/is overcooked. Suits was the first new studio album for the new label and I didn't have the confidence then than I have now. We polished the songs too much. However there are some good songs on that album and in the new set we'll be doing "Mr 1470," "No Dummy" and "Raw Meat." As a first release where we did everything ourselves, Suits sold over a 100,000 copies, so again, this isn't bad at all.

JB: Did you hear Sunsets On Empire sounding in your head exactly like it turned out to be on disc, or was it the collaboration with producer Steve Wilson [Porcupine Tree, No Man] who did the trick?

F: When we got in the studio the very first day Steve told me he had seen his very first Marillion gig at the tender age of twelve and I wasn't even in the band! Personally I have always been a very big fan of the seventies wave of prog, whilst Steve is more into Steve Hillage and all that psychedelic movement. In fact, it was our publisher who seemed to be a mutual fan of Steve and me and it was he who put on some No Man material and that, for me, sold it! I heard "Housewives Hooked On Heroin" and I thought: "wow, that's where I want to be heading." For me Porcupine Tree gets slabby at times but No Man really hits it right.

JB: Did he have to listen to you or the other way around?

F: We had our disagreements and sometimes it came close to me kicking him out and starting all over with someone else. At first we had talked about the idea for the album and he was pulling me in various directions. At one time he said he didn't like the soul/bluesiness in my voice. He wanted to hear the Marillion voice and I said: "that voice no longer exists!" The sound of my voice now is the result of two years on the road! You can't change that. In the end, it was the mix in the middle that we settled for. Oh yes, there was constant friction between us but it was a healthy friction. In the end I am still captain of this ship, it will be my name on top of the album not that of Steve Wilson. If this album becomes the laughing stock of the journalists, then Steve Wilson will get away from the debris unharmed.

JB: When the ardent Fish-fans listen to the album for the very first time and they hear the opening track "The Perception Of Johnny Punter" they won't know what hit them! Did you already have that particular sound in mind?

F: We wanted something that had "big balls." We wanted the darkness, we wanted an aggression, we wanted high energy levels, we wanted keen edges. If you put Suits next to Sunsets On Empire you can hear that the seeds were already there. If you listen to "Mr 1470" and then to "Brother 52." If you compare say "Fortunes Of War" with "Tara" then you will detect that Blue Nile feel to it, if you put "No Dummy" next to "Jungle Ride": it's there, you can see where it's coming from. But in 1994 I was too scared, I wasn't confident enough to make a big jump.

JB: There's a track on the new album which is called "Tara" and it's about your daughter. Now I guess this will put a lump in your throat when you sing it on stage on the other side of the world whilst in your mind you'll be sitting in her bedroom ...

F: You're the very first one to point this out to me and yes, there's a couple of moments on the album that are ... let's say, poignant. I can see the tabloids now: "Fish cracks up on stage in Tokyo!" When I go on stage I'm also an actor who's got to go on with his part and yes you do have to put on your mask occasionally. I remember a couple of occasions when we did "Sugar Mice" on the acoustic tour, I turned around and Frank would be crying his eyes out. We both had just been talking to our kid over the phone and at that time it was becoming too real, you know.

JB: Does writing your own lyrics give you a certain power in order to tackle certain issues?

F: My political statements aren't very strong. I'm a socialist and a Scottish nationalist but at the same time I can shift towards right wing tendencies. On the new album there's a very strong story in "Brother 52" which is also going to be our first single. I got a call from Doc whom I met through the fan club. It concerns him and his mate "Brother 52" who were in California and got into trouble with the authorities. OK, what happened is that they had done time and they knew that, if they wanted to stay there, things could well go out of hand and end up in a very nasty way. "Brother 52" is probably my biggest fan in the world. He has tattoos all over his body, having something to do wth Marillion and me. He's got the sleeves for Misplaced Childhood, the jester on his back, "Gentleman's Excuse Me," [and] stuff from Internal Exile all over his body! On top of that he's number 52 in the American fan club so that makes him "Brother 52." He got it in his head that he was an all-American boy and their constitution says that it's every American's right to be armed. He took it to the extreme and we're talking about automatic weapons, plastic explosives, rocket launchers. He believed that American society would crumble and he'd have to defend himself overnight. What happened at the end of the day is that "Brother 52" was taken out by the authorities, I mean "take him right out." I didn't agree with what "52" was doing and neither did Doc, which is why everyone thought that Doc killed "52," which is the reason why the story's there. At the same time, I got the feeling there was a lot of what you might call "slightly right off centre." [Doc died in August of 1999, the result of liver cancer -ed.]

The same happens where Dunblane is concerned in Scotland. In Britain everyone is saying "no guns," "nobody should have a gun." I've got a shotgun licence, I've got a licence for calibre pistols, and to be honest if it was my kid who was in Dunblane, or somebody hurt my kid and I had a gun and I knew who did it, then I'd blow their fucking head off. So I can't be a nice liberal!

JB: Do you have an idea what it costs to put the Fish show on the road?

F: For this tour, I calculated it being €3,500 a day, on and off, so it's costing me as much even if we have a day off! Even if the gear remains in the back of the truck I still have to pay the guys. The PA company will not say: "right this is a day off, we won't charge you." It roughly comes down to €28,000 a week ... playing clubs!

JB: There have obviously been some changes since the recording of the album...

F: That's right and I'm happy I can give you the full line-up, for just two days ago Mickey Simmonds called me [to say] he'll be going on tour, which is great. Then I have Keith More on guitar who will have the difficult job to replace two guitarists, but he's an ace guitarist so I know he'll do exactly that. When I heard he was the Arena guitarist I thought: "oh no" because I didn't like their first album. For me it could easily be an anagram of Script For A Jester's Tear. Also what I didn't want is to go back to that particular style. But when I heard his solo album Guitar Stories, wow, that really blew my socks off! What a talent, what a sound, what a great guy! Then on drums there's Dave Stewart, still in the ranks together with newcomer Steve Hantsis formerly of Horses on bass.

JB: It's been 9 years now since you left Marillion. Have you ever regreted it?

F; No. Financially I have a couple of times, but in the end no. I have had more fun and I have seen more places in the last two years than I have with Marillion.

JB: During those 9 years did you follow what Marillion were doing?

F: Of course. I see it like a true relationship. In the beginning, when you have just broken up, everything hurts and even if you're with another woman you can't stop thinking about the one you left. But after a couple of years it all becomes less painful and in the end you even tend to forget the whole thing and that's exactly how I feel towards Marillion. Naturally I'm interested to hear their new material every time, [like] the same like they [will] probably will remain interested in my output. I listened to the Wishing Tree album [Steve Rothery's side project -ed] and was disappointed with the bad sound of the album. I do think Steve H's Icecreamgenius album is quite good. There's a couple of tracks on that one that I really like.

JB: If you like it or not, with the release of The Best Of Both Worlds, the new Marillion compilation, you were again submitted to entering the Marillion arena ...

F: Yeah, and believe it or not, I guess, it was the very first time Mark and I really agreed on something! We had indirect conversations because of the various Marillion projects such as The Best Of Both Worlds album and because they're remastering all the old albums. I heard that Steve's a very big fan of the Sunsets On Empire album.

JB: When you left Marillion there were people that automatically turned their back on you and never ever wanted anything to do with you, whereas there were Fish-fans who no longer wanted to have anything to do with Marillion. Can you understand this?

F; Again it's like with a divorce. If you're a group of people consisting of various couples and one of these couples breaks up, then the spirit in the group will never ever be the same again. I lost a lot of good friends through me splitting from the band and that hurts, but I do understand their situation where it becomes difficult to be on both sides at the same time. "Privet" [Chris Hedge], who was best man at my wedding, found it difficult to speak to me for five years after the split, all of our conversations were rather "guarded," very awkward.

At the moment a similar thing is happening with Frank Usher. Frank left the band in February and when he came round to the house recently no one at the office knew what to say.

JB: Way back in '93 there was talk of an album called Half Fish Half Man which would be an album you'd do with Rick Wakeman. What happened with that one?

F: At the time we'd both had the same manager, Brian Lane; a guy I have no respect for whatsoever. So that was one of Brian's ideas for an album but in the end nothing materialized.

JB: Was the Around The World In Eighty Days one of Brian Lane's ideas as well?

F: NO! That has been my idea all along! Everyone touching that idea is warned! Keep off!

JB: One of the much asked questions obviously is where the name Fish comes from. Now it has been said that this was due to the fact that you were always having a bath. But was the main reason for having these "hot" baths because it was the only way you could keep warm in the cold city of Aberdeen?

F: Hahaha. Not at all. I was with a fellowship at the time. I was staying with these guys, but had to get out because it was kinda rough. It was a Saturday night and we were preparing soup and before I knew it these guys were having a fight and there was blood all over the kitchen. I took those guys to the hospital so they could get their faces stitched up. When we got back, they sat at the table and started eating this soup, which was covered in blood and I thought I must get out of here, this is too bizarre. So I got back to my landlady who was just a mean bitch trying to get money out of me all the time. She decided that I was allowed a bath once a week and for every extra bath I had to pay her an extra 20 pence.

There was only one bath in the house and to get all the filth out of my system from what happened in the kitchen, I was in the bath constantly. She had to go to the neighbours to go to the bathroom! In the end, when my mates called me, she had to tell them I was in the bath, time and time again, so in the end they said I wasn't a man but I was a fish. In the beginning there were only about three or four people calling me Fish, but I went on using the name from the moment I got into the rock business. Imagine climbing on stage and being introduced as Derek William Dick!

JB: However, times have changed and you're a famous artist now, who has even been asked to perform in a film ...

F: Well, I have been asked by Hugh Hudson who did Chariots Of Fire to act in his new movie called The World Of Moss and it's the best script I've ever read!

JB: So the part in Zorro was worthwhile in the end ...

F: Oh yes, Zorro; my god. No, Hugh wanted me to be in this movie, but I told him I was too busy. But he kept on asking me, so in the end I said yes. In this day and age if you keep sitting on your behind then there's no future for you. You have to grab every opportunity that comes along! In the movie I play the role of a blacksmith.

JB: So it will be like the Dick Bros record company logo coming to life?

F: Yeah, I never thought about this. Yep, you're right, you're absolutely right. What great publicity!

[Fish has since been in various other TV and film productions, including Chasing The Deer, and the Scottish TV police show Taggart . Of course, since the time this interview was conducted, Fish has released Raingods With Zippos, other live "bootlegs," and most recently, the new studio album Fellini Days {in a 2008 update, more acting roles and releases, most recently 13 Star , ...}. -ed.]

Discography:
Vigil In A Wilderness of Mirrors (1990)
Internal Exile (1991)
Songs From The Mirror (1992)
There's A Guy Works Down The Chip Shop Swears He's Fish(1992)*
Toiling In The Reeperbahn (1993)**
Derek Dick And His Amazing Electric Bear (1993)**
Pigpens Birthday (1993)**
Uncle Fish & The Crypt Creepers (1993)**
For Whom The Bells Toll(1993)**
The Funny Farm Project - Outpatients '93 (1993)***
Suits (1994)
Sushi (1994)**
Acoustic Session (1994)**
Yin and Yang (1995)
Fish Head Curry (1996)**
Krakow (1996)
Sunsets On Empire (1997)
Kettle Of Fish (1998)
Fortunes Of War Acoustic Set UK '94 (1998)
Tales From The Big Bus (Live From K?ln 1997) (1998)
Haddington Corn Exchange 1998 (1999)
The Complete BBC Sessions (1999)
Raingods With Zippos (1999)
Candlelight In Fog (USA 2000) (2000)
Fellini Days (2001)
Sashimi (Live In Poznan, Poland 1999) (2001)
Fellini Nights (2002)
Mixed Company (2003)
Field Of Crows (2004)
Bouillabaisse - The Best Of Fish (2005)
13th Star (2007)
Leamington Spa Convention (2012) A Feast Of Consequences (2013)