Wileman, Richard (Karda Estra) (August 2002)

Karda Estra's (Not So) Ordinary Mortal: Richard Wileman

This interview originally appeared at Progfreaks.com in October 2001 -ed.

The influence of classical music on progressive rock has always been readily apparent, all the way from the mere borrowing of characteristics such as suites containing several movements to the actual inclusion of philharmonic orchestras in the works of progressive rock bands. This influence, however, has normally found itself relegated to the submission of those classical elements by their harsher rock counterparts, forming thus an entertaining and challenging style but never really quite coming out of the sonic waves of bands' instruments. With the British act Karda Estra, however, this is bound to change. Relying mainly upon the use of chamber instruments in order to create cinematic instrumentals of somber beauty, this band is currently treading the edges of progressive rock and letting its classical music elements breathe openly and magnificently, thus allowing mastermind Richard Wileman to piece his very own progressive puzzle together. How does he do it? Well, that's exactly what yours truly is about to try and find out!

Marcelo Silveyra: [Going back to the band's beginnings, as usual... -MS.] Before you created Karda Estra, you released a series of albums with Lives & Times; a band that was decidedly more rock-oriented and that eventually broke up after releasing its final album Hoarse. And while acquiring your own studio equipment gave you the opportunity of experimenting without any time constraints or pressures, aside from not having to work with other people's disagreements, there must have been something that ignited the direction change that Karda Estra signified. What finally caused the end of Lives & Times and since when did you first come up with the idea of exploring the full-blown concepts that you've used in Karda Estra?

Richard Wileman: Lives And Times split several times! Most notably 1990, 1995 and 1997/1998. For most of Lives and Times' existence, the lead vocalist was Lorna Cumberland. The final incarnation with Ileesha Bailey as singer lasted between 96 and 98 (we did a final acoustic gig as a duo in February 98 whilst the seeds of Karda Estra were already being sown). The last album Hoarse was absolutely plagued with line-up changes and disagreements. I was without doubt utterly fed up with the other musicians I'd been working with. With trying to get a live band going, I seemed to be facing so many hurdles internally that I had all the confidence kicked out of me when it came to pushing us. I promised myself I would never go back to that kind of situation and nothing or no one has come along since to persuade me otherwise.

The "idea" of Karda Estra can be traced back through Lives And Times with some of the more instrumental/experimental tracks on those albums. Having my own studio allowed me to really indulge in recording orchestral and other acoustic instruments and start to build a much fuller sound. In addition, I obviously had more time to experiment with electronics, effects, guitar sounds, etc. - and very importantly - multi-track Ileesha's vocals to get that lovely choral sound. I've always loved the Genesis choral mellotron sound in songs like "Silent Sorrow In Empty Boats" or "Afterglow." I also love the wordless chorale in pieces like Vaughan Williams' "Flos Campi" or the soundtracks of Danny Elfman. Using vocals in this way adds a very beautiful aspect to chord/melody work.

When you start creating pieces of music that have this kind of widescreen depth, it is perfectly natural to start approaching grander and deeper subject matter. I'm very keen to stress that Karda Estra most definitely does not sit with shallow and simplistic "new age" music. Nor is it stuffy and academic modern classical. I still write in terms of verses, choruses and variations. My concerns are harmony, bass lines, tunes and beats. I don't think of floaty meditations or dots on a manuscript. I allow myself unlimited indulgence in the hope I can create something beautiful, haunting, challenging and occasionally very dark!

MS: The Karda Estra lineup on A Winter In Summertime consisted of yourself, the aforementioned Ileesha Bailey, Zoë King, and Rachel Larkins. Caron Hansford was added by the time you released Thirteen From The Twenty-First, and Eve features the talents of yet another person, Helen Dearnly. Where do you find the musicians that play with Karda Estra, and is this increase in them intentional? Moreover, why only women? Are men just too stubborn to work with?

RW: The musicians I've found work for me in a session capacity. I've either found or had the players recommended. Generally music teachers, they are all musically highly educated and extremely able and gifted. It is very funny to think of me telling them what to do when I was told to drop music at school ... I was so awful! I print their parts out via MIDI and my PC and they manage to be very polite when they double check a passage and I'm clearly bluffing and not really understanding what they're asking! They are very patient as I play how the part was really meant to go on guitar (or worse, hum it!). The increase in people is purely down to me trying to get as much instrument variety and skill into each new project.

There certainly was no plan to recruit only women! It was purely down to whom I came across locally and if they were interested in recording. "Are men too stubborn to work with?" Dangerous! Using musicians in a session way kind of removes that problem. Saying that, the musicians in Karda Estra are all very ego-free and really seem mainly concerned in trying to get what I'm trying achieve which is lovely.

MS: A curious choice of word, as the music featured on your albums is very dark and moody, referenced by many as gothic and certainly displaying a very cinematic nature. Is this kind of ambience a result of some of your personal views and experiences? Does living in rainy England ever see itself reflected in your music?

RW: I love the idea of creating a music where anything is possible. My favourite progressive bands of the Seventies certainly opened up my opinions showing mixing many styles was an exciting and thrilling adventure. It was natural for me to get into listening to classical and soundtrack music as well as many other styles. The trick with this is to not make what you're doing a clumsy mixture of styles that fails to become something new and vital in its own right. By mixing my own interests in art and film, etc., I hope I'm conveying something rich and interesting.

Rainy England! [laughs]. Well, I do like the sadness and emotion of minor chords! Generally though, I'm pretty laid back - well, so I'm told. I like a good time and enjoy a filthy sense of humour! Trust me to become a miserable bugger when it comes to my tunes! Still, rainy England I can handle. I fall asleep in hotter countries, so I'd get nothing done. As long as people don't think I write from some dark Transylvanian dungeon, I don't mind!

MS: Karda Estra seems to be gradually veering away from the subtle traces of progressive rock in its sound and moving instead towards a more soundtrack-like style of pure classical instrumentation. Is this a result of your greater experience with chamber instruments as you experiment with them? How do you take your electric guitar playing away from the confines of rock music in order to bring it successfully into the Karda Estra sound?

RW: That is a fair assessment of Eve. Because the book was based in the nineteenth century, I purposely got rid of regular beats. All the remaining percussion is for accent and impact. I felt this was the best way to achieve a "timeless" feel to the album. However, as I said previously, anything is possible. The next Karda Estra album could be very drum-orientated or song-based or purely classical or an Eve Mk 2. I owe it myself, and ultimately the people who listen to what I do, to naturally follow what feels right. In between the Thirteen From The Twenty First album and Eve, I recorded all sorts of stuff. If anyone wants to go to [our website] you will see a few of these[*]. "Avatar" for example has an aggressive beat, fuzz bass and lots of dirty guitar. I've woven other Karda Estra aspects, including Ileesha's vocals, and I hope this sounds just as different yet uniquely Karda Estra as anything you'll find on the "regular"albums. That said, I do try my best to avoid a lot of rock clichés with my electric guitar playing. Lots of volume pedal bowing a la Steve Hackett/Alex Lifeson, effects and slide effects to get a theremin kind of sound. I'm currently recording quite an experimental ambient collaboration album with Russian composer Artemiy Artemiev [it was released July 2002; cover art at left -ed.]. I've dabbled in the past, but this is a full on album and quite unlike Eve, although I hope some of our characteristics shine through.

MS: Having touched upon the subject of classical instrumentation ... a couple of months ago, I interviewed a musician [IQ's Martin Orford - MS] who stated that classical music has grown into an overly fat, pompous, and spoiled type of music during the latter half of this century, partly because of excessive experimentation and partly due to snobbism. Seeing as to how you use chamber instruments in a strongly classical element-based type of music, and considering that your influences include people like Samuel Barber, what do you think about the status of modern classical music today?

RW: To be honest, I know very little! Because it is essentially rooted in academic practices and I'm very much from the self-taught rock route I don't feel particularly comfortable with it. I did have some classical guitar lessons but used to cheat and memorise the pieces rather than read the music! The orchestral music I love reaches me through its beauty or power or its ability to challenge. I react to this instinctively in the way I understand music either emotionally or technically, but I would never say "academically" if that makes sense. Samuel Barber has obvious tremendous technical skill, but this is purely the vehicle he has used to get over the more transcendental beauty of pieces I particularly love such as his "Adagio for Strings," "First Symphony," and "Essays for Orchestra," etc.

In commercial terms, both in terms of records and broadcasts, new classical often falls into pretty horrible experimentalism or sorry "crossover" granny music! There are exceptions of course and I hope I haven't offended too many composers!

MS: What is the music world like for Karda Estra when the amount of marketing that goes into promoting bands is reaching ridiculous levels, music keeps getting trendier and trendier, and musicians who are to expect to become famous must be younger every time? Will this signify an irreversible damage to popular music? How will the youth of tomorrow be able to find different music if it keeps being bombarded by advertisements and promotion on behalf of major record labels?

RW: Music has always been about trends and major labels have always advertised. I've never held blame for bad music with labels really. It is the media which shapes perceptions and revels in making trends. If a label releases something that is crap, then they run the risk of losing their own money. They carry the can. If on the other hand, the media trumps up that crap to be good, get it a lot of attention, radio playlists, etc. then the media really are to blame ... as well as the idiot who bought it of course! Progressive music is a good example of this because the media is very reluctant to accept it. It wouldn't matter if a major released it or an independent, if you see what I mean. Truly progressive new music like Radiohead circumnavigates this by sidestepping the genre clichés and therefore the media's preconceptions by being something really new and challenging.The youth always find new and exciting things. The Net is a perfect way to do it. The diversification and watering-down effect will often mean, however, some deserving bands will be lost. Still, this has always happened ... anyone heard of Lives And Times?!

MS: Now, going back to your albums and taking a curious element from both Thirteen From The Twenty-First and Eve, the instrumentals are normally based on some other work of art, which of course makes it enjoyably challenging to try and figure out what the relation between the music and the inspiration is exactly. On Thirteen From The Twenty-First, the first five tracks are based on surrealist paintings, while Eve is based on a novel. Are there more constraints on what type of ambience and mood you can come up with when basing your music on a novel instead of on something as abstract as surrealist paintings? How interesting/challenging is it to create music that represents a book and an entire concept, as opposed to individual pieces based on your impressions of different things?

RW: It's initially harder to nail what I'm really trying to say with a "concept," rather than just going with "an idea that popped into my head that morning." The constraints are not noticeable after a while though, because I put so much of myself into it and they start to disappear. They pieces become less a "description" and more my reaction to them. They're a good starting point inspiration-wise, but really, it still is a trip through my head in the end. I always feel the music should stand up in its own right without props. If someone wants to investigate the inspiration behind and it makes the piece even better for them, then that's fine, too.

MS: Now that we're on the subject of Eve, the music on the album was based on the rather obscure book, The Future Eve by Villiers de L'Isle Adam. Why not choose something of a similar brooding romantic nature, but with greater fame, such as Frankenstein? Additionally, did you want to base the album on The Future Eve from the very beginning, or did you first come up with the idea of basing an album on a novel and then looked for the appropriate one to use?

RW: Some pieces were sketched out already. The then-untitled "An Ordinary Mortal" had drums through it. I read The Future Eve last autumn and it hit me how it could work so well as inspiration, so I worked the existing pieces in accordingly adapting them and started writing some new ones, too. I guess the idea of adapting something that is more of a buried treasure appeals more than using a well-known work, just for the chance of being a little more original. Saying that, the films Bride Of Frankenstein and Frankenstein Created Woman were also never far from my mind when it came to conveying the ideas of manipulation and gender. It's one big gothic hotpot really!!!!

MS: You once mentioned that the feeling of playing live isn't as rewarding for you as the process of creating music in the studio, which is exactly the opposite of what many recording musicians would say! Have you ever considered a third alternative, that being functioning as a sort of conductor or organizer of concerts and not actually playing in them? Would this be an option if there were enough resources to bring it to reality?

RW: That's because I love writing so much and the writing and recording process for me are fairly instantaneous. Any live option though would be great if someone else would put in the time and money!!! You never know...

MS: London-based artist Sarah Varney has used Karda Estra's music on her arthouse film Signature, and you have worked on several soundtrack projects already. With the multimedia experience that films signify, have you ever thought of actually doing it the other way around? That is, trying to have someone create a film or paint something based on Karda Estra music?

RW: Great ideas. Once again, if anyone is interested, I'd love to hear from them. I'd be very flattered indeed! I haven't actively gone out looking for this, as I'm so tied up with writing or promotion, but assuming we get more well-known, maybe people will approach us. I feel it should be that way around - so that they genuinely wanted to do it and were not answering a "commission" or something.

MS: This is something that I had to ask after reading that some of your personal guitar development came from learning Black Sabbath's riffs. Any chance of Karda Estra ever recording a Black Sabbath cover song? Of even considering it? Of saying yes just to humor me?

RW: Absolutely! If anyone is looking to do a Black Sabbath tribute album, let me know! I guess I'd want to take from the classic Sabbath Bloody Sabbath/Sabotage period - maybe "Spiral Architect" or "The Writ" - Yeah, wow - that would fun. Mind you, I bet we could give a good shot at the song "Black Sabbath" as well, as it's nice and slow. Karda Estra's version would be really scary!

[* originally this reference was to an mp3.com site, which is no longer around (well, maybe mp3.com is, but wasn't for a while; anyway, I meant Karda Estra's link). However, if you go to the Karda Estra website, there is a link to their Soundcloud page with musical offerings, plus there's a YouTube page -ed. 2011]

Discography:
A Winter In Summertime (1998)
Thirteen From The Twenty First (2000)
The Land Of Ghosts (2000)
Eve (2001)
Equilibrium (2002)
The Land Of Ghosts Vol. 2 (2002) (oop)
Constellations (2003)
Voivode Dracula (2004)
Alternate History (2004)
The Age Of Science And Enlightenment (2006)
The Last Of The Libertine (2007)
Weird Tales (2009)
New Worlds (2011)
Mondo Profondo (2013)
The Seas And The Stars (dwnld, ltd ed. CDR) (2015)
Strange Relations (2015)