Latimer, Andy (Camel) (July 2001)

Camel: "It surely doesn't give me the hump!"

Théâtre 140 in Brussels is a very cozy, convenient theatre with a backstage area situated in the basement. The graffiti on the walls remind me of the KBGB or Paradiso but surely it's a big contrast to the polished attitude of Camel. After being a true fan for more than twenty years, this is my first encounter with the founding member, the big man (literally!), Andy Latimer.

John "Bobo" Bollenberg: When you were chosen by Melody Maker as brightest hope in 1975 what went on in your little minds?

Andy Latimer: Obviously we were all very excited. When we went up to collect our awards, Led Zeppelin was there and Yes was there, so we thought we had arrived in the first division at last. It looked like an important step in the right direction. 1975 was an exciting time as we didn't have the pressure from the record company like you have now so we could steer our ship into any direction we wanted really. I guess things started to change from the moment Fleetwood Mac's Rumours and Peter Frampton's Comes Alive albums went multi-platinum the world over. From that particular time onwards record companies started to notice that they could make far more money than they had ever envisaged before. That's when things started to change.

JB: Looking back at things, you were given a lot of possibilities during your Decca period.

AL: There were some pressures but not like you have today. I remember when we first signed to Decca they were talking of breaking the band after the third album so they were thinking very long term, which is a thing that no longer happens. When the eighties arrived the attitude changed to "how can we sell you if you don't give us what we want!" The only thing they wanted was a hit single, that we wear gold leotards, cut off our hair or whatever was necessary at the time to be "hip" and to be given the full treatment in the media.

JB: The very first thing you recorded was an album with singer-songwriter Philip Goodhand-Tait ( I Think I'll Write A Song) where an early Camel was drafted in as backing band. Were you eventually signed as Camel on the strength of this album?

AL: No we weren't. We even got the sack from Philip, which meant that we didn't do anything for about nine months. We put an ad in Melody Maker and Peter Bardens got in touch. We rehearsed and found out there was a great energy in the band. And it's that energy which gave us our first contract with MCA, which unfortunately only lasted for one album, as we got the sack from the label.

JB: Was the original contract with MCA only for one album?

AL: I think there was talk of one album with an option for five albums in total. What happened with MCA at the time, like with so many other companies, is that everyone that was into our music was fired. The top MD was fired and the A&R guy was fired and in the end they drafted in all these new faces. They said we don't want Camel, we don't want Stackridge, we don't want a trillion other bands, so we were back on the streets.

However on the strength of our first album for MCA we got Decca interested in us, as they saw we were a promising band, albeit very slow starters!

JB: Why were you called Camel?

AL: I don't really know! What I do know is that, when we got together as a fourpiece, Pete Bardens had about four gigs booked in Ireland as a previous commitment. As we didn't have a name at the time he suggested we'd be booked as Pete Barden's On. I agreed but said we needed to have a name when we left Ireland, that was our mission. We spent a lot of time in pubs coming up with outrageous names and in the end we left Ireland still "nameless." When we got back it was Pete or Andy [Ward] who suggested Camel. It didn't sound too bad so we slept on it and the next day we still liked it. By the third day we accepted it and Camel it would remain. We also liked the animal who was kind of "funky," finding its way through the desert. We liked it!

JB: Did you feel part of the Canterbury scene?

AL: No but Andy Ward did (does). In a way we got linked with the Canterbury scene because of our involvement with Richard and Dave Sinclair and Jan Schelhass all from Caravan. When Andy and I first got together, we used to listen to Caravan's first album a lot. We both liked it, thought the band was great. It had nice songs, a wonderful feel, maybe a bit weird production, but still an ace record. It's kind of interesting I should mention this because I bought the CD on this tour! Geographically speaking Camel could never be part of the Canterbury scene for we lived some 100 miles further!

JB: When we look at the Canterbury scene, apart from the superb music, there's also a strong sense of humour. Was that also apparent in Camel?

AL: I don't think so, for Camel was more of a "serious" band. We hardly came around doing silly things or putting daft lyrics on our albums.

JB: You once offered us "Down On The Farm"... [on Breathless - ed.]

AL: That was Richard you see. We all did that because at the time there was a lot of turmoil with Pete. Three of us did no longer want Pete in the band and when during the recording of Breathless he came up with this song, we didn't want to record it, so we said we'd give Richard a chance to include one of his songs. In a way "Down On The Farm" was a relief to us because it slightly took away the problem edge. Breathless was a very difficult album to make as we could feel the tension and the band sort of falling apart. In the end Pete was so disgusted with our proposal that he didn't play on the track. Andy and I thought the song was fun to do and really got into it.

JB: So apart from this one track Camel never got close to introducing some humour in their music ?

AL: I Can See Your House From Here was like a humorous thing for us. The original title for that album was Endangered Species. The sleeve was ready and the title was OK and I quite liked it. But then came this inside joke and it was terribly "tacky" and awful and I said: "no, it's got to be called Endangered Species," and they said we had to show the world we had a sense of humour and I was overruled and it was eventually called I Can See Your House From Here which I have hated ever since!

JB: The material you record now on your own Camel Productions label tends to be serious and concept based. Doesn't this sort of oblige you to do the entire album as a whole live?

AL: Well we did Harbour Of Tears entirely live. If you look at most bands, a tour is there to promote their latest album and they play a huge chunk from that album. In our case we have to bring it as a whole because it's easier for me to get into the spirit of the album as opposed to only do a couple of songs. However it's quite a long show so there's plenty of time to do the "other" songs as well.

JB: When you recorded the Camel album for MCA you created a unique sound, but I'm pretty sure you had your influences like any other artist.

AL: Sure. Bands like Focus and Caravan were very important to us. In fact, during the recording of our first album the producer told us we couldn't sing. That was true as none of us could really sing. So halfway through the recording we auditioned some fifty singers and they were all terrible. We thought if all of these people thought they were singers we shouldn't be ashamed of our vocal possibilities and in a way it sort of shaped our sound. Because we were very paranoid about our vocals we sang very little. There was a long instrumental bit and then a little bit of vocals and again a long instrumental section. At the time Focus was a very big hit and they had no vocals at all. So we thought if they can do it so can we! Andy was always very much influenced by jazz so he brought that into the band. Pete was more into soul and Santana and I was always more into English classical stuff and blues. It's that odd combination which gives you the Camel sound.

JB: When did the sound change?

AL: In the beginning we thought alike, we ate alike, we slept alike, we lived alike. When Doug left, the spirit of the band was gone. After him leaving, Camel never ever felt the same again. It was like a family breaking up. It took me until 1992 when we went out as a four-piece again to feel that spirit again and think: "that's what Camel's all about"!

JB: Is Camel nowadays an Andy Latimer solo project?

AL: Yes it is; it's kinda my baby now. It's not that I don't want to work with people, coz' I do, but I feel working with people on a Camel project very limiting because it's my vision, it's what I think Camel is about. I have also thought there is a path for Camel. Now over the years I have lost that path a couple of times, but now I'm sure I found that path again and I don't want to lose it anymore. The way I work with Foss Patterson for instance is that we write music. If it comes out sounding like Camel then we'll use it for Camel. If it sounds differently then we'll use it for something else outside of Camel.

JB: I met Ton Scherpenzeel not so long ago and he told me there were two things he didn't like with Camel. Firstly it took so long before a new album was finished and secondly he has fear of flying!

AL: Ton is a wonderful person and an excellent writer. He also is more of a family man who doesn't want to get out of Holland too much. He made things very difficult for me due to his fear of flying. I mean we couldn't do Japan, we couldn't do America. For a while I tried to solve this by going to Holland and record there but as I live in America this way of working together became a very expensive thing!

JB: Were you writing Camel material or something else?

AL: Initially it was my intention to write a new Camel album with Ton. I would come up with stuff and so would Ton. However the material Ton would suggest wasn't Camel at all. It was splendid material but not at all Camel. Instead of trying out something else I just told him our collaboration had to stop, as this wasn't Camel at all. So it left Ton very disappointed and I was very bitter about this as well. What I should have done was continue to write material together and then decide what to do with it. If it turned out to be Camel fine, if it didn't we could always release it as the Latimer/Scherpenzeel project.

JB: Apart from the material written with Ton is there other Camel material which never got released, but which could be used for a box set or something?

AL: Camel always was a band that recorded what needed to be recorded at the time. So there weren't a lot of so called "outtakes." Obviously there's some bits and pieces which I toyed around with [the idea] to release. We once did a single called "Riverman" which was never released. It was rather limp really, maybe only of interest to our fans, so maybe I'll release it through mailorder only, I don't know.

JB: In the seventies you had major media attention, being a regular feature on both Radio One and The Old Grey Whistle Test. Were these things very important?

AL: It obviously helped us to reach a much wider audience, but you shouldn't forget that we were touring a lot. We were on the road nine months of the year and by word of mouth we extended our fanbase. We used to do a lot of clubs in the beginning and then Doug, who was sort of our visionary, said we would no longer do clubs so we moved to universities. The next step was to go from universities to concert halls, so all in all it was a gradual process.

JB: It seems that, although you're a guitarist, you write most of your songs on the piano. How come?

AL: I'm not going to do the next album on piano, but yes I always liked the piano. There's something soothing about a piano that I can't find with a guitar. When I sit at the piano I can let everything flow. I have to say I'm first of all a composer and in second position I'm a guitar player. I get enormous satisfaction when I write a composition even if the song is no fun to play afterwards. Sometimes I write songs that don't even have a guitar in them but I do love composing it. The main reason here is that I have all these keyboards with orchestral modules at my disposal.

JB: Is it because you also play keyboards that you include some of the world's best keyboard players in Camel?

AL: I've always been very lucky when it came down to the musicians we had in Camel. Although at times some of the compositions don't sound at all complicated they bloody well are, I can guarantee you!

JB: You had Peter Bardens, Kit Watkins, Duncan Mackay, Ton Scherpenzeel, Francis Monkman, Jan Schelhaas, Richie Close. Do you think someone like Duncan Mackay finds it nicer to play with Camel than with, say, 10 CC, where he can earn ten times as much?

AL: Playing with Camel is a challenge, and every musician that once was a member of Camel either to tour or to record, joined Camel only because it was a challenge for them. Kit Watkins was frighteningly good, scary to work with. In all the years I have worked with him, I can't remember that he played one single faulty note. Not once! On top of that, most of the time Kit would come off stage unhappy by his performance. When I go on tour I give it all I've got but I do play the odd "bum" note or so because I'm human. In Kit's case, this ain't human anymore!

JB: How did you get in touch with Kit?

AL: Andy and I used to listen to the Happy the Man albums, which we thought were incredible. We were knocked out by the band as they were all very skilled musicians.

JB: Those were the days where you could hear all these wonderful sounds by unknown bands on Radio Caroline: Happy The Man, Fruupp, England ...

AL: God, yeah, those were the days. Unfortunately that's all gone now. Especially in America, where I live now, everything is programmed. Nothing's personal anymore, which is a big shame. In the "old" days you used to have this particular deejay who'd come into the studio with a stack of albums under his arm and you would make time to tune into his programme because each time it was an exceptional experience. Nowadays it's like listening to a washing machine spin!

JB: Moonmadness originally was intended to be a concept album based around the personalities of the various band members. I believe "Air Born" was your track?

AL: How do you know all this? The lyrics had nothing to do with me and as you probably know all of our lyrics were mainly written after the songs were written anyway. Pete did most of the lyrics but it was mainly the music which came close to my personality. If you listen to "Air Born" that's me at the time: very English, coz' that's how I felt back then.

"Lunar Sea" was Andy because it was very jazzy. "Chord Change" was Pete because as a person he would change very rapidly as well. Then again, Doug was more dependable so "Another Night" was Doug all over.

JB: Your effort Harbour Of Tears is a personal view on the many thousands of Irish people who left their country to seek a better life in America. Isn't it also the story of Andy Latimer leaving Britain to seek a better life in the States?

AL: In a way yes. America is a strange and wonderful place to be. There's certain parts I hate about it and other parts I like. I don't see myself going back to England, that's for sure. I might leave America and settle for somewhere in Europe, though. Maybe Holland.

JB: ... or the south of France?

AL: I'll have to sell more albums if I'd want to move to the south of France!

JB: When you're on tour and you get to play in England again after many years, do you feel a certain amount of adrenaline going through your veins?

AL: Not really no. It's more like: "god I'm back in England again and it's grubby and unorganized, people are unfriendly. In America you have a lot more energy. If you want to do something in the States, you get cracking, you do it. In Britain, and the rest of Europe for that matter, you have so many authorities trying to earn a penny along the way that you get discouraged before you have even started! I tell you, the main reason why I left England was because I went to various record companies and they told me I was too old and so was my music. That was the mid-eighties and I got in a real crisis, asking myself if I had to become a plumber or what? I spent almost a year being depressed, watching television all day and I then decided that if no company wanted to release my music then I should do it myself. Looking at how much it would cost me to set up a record company in Britain I decided to sell my house and invest all of my money in America where the weather was nicer and where I was treated as someone special. In England I was treated as an old fart, no respect whatsoever! On top of that, my girlfriend Susan is from the States. Apart from the culture shock, I had it very difficult the very first year because I didn't know what it all contained. OK, I had been in the business for over fifteen years but it was Decca who took care of everything. Now I had to do everything myself!

JB: If I look at your current situation then I must say it's very similar to that of Fish. On top of that you also use a lot of his musicians ...

AL: Yeah, it looks like I've taken away half of his band! But it's true that we are very similar in that we now run our own company and have to deal with every decision in the book. Before we go on tour we sit down and calculate. Merchandising is a very big part of our income. Now in the "old" days, when we did a tour and we lost forty grand, we didn't care coz' the record company took care of it. Today, if after a lengthy tour I come home and see that I've lost forty grand, I'll probably end up with a heart attack! It's a constant battle in trying to survive. So far none of the tours I have ever done made a profit. So you have to think of maybe recording one or two shows and release a video and/or a CD because that's the only way you can recuperate some of your investment.

JB: When you look back on your recorded output can you pick out the best album?

AL: No I can't. I like Dust And Dreams a lot because it was my first recording for my own label, sort of the start of a new career really. That's an album I like as a whole. But there are lots of good parts scattered all over the albums. Sometimes I listen to a bit of Mirage or the first album and think: "wow, that's quite good!"

JB: Isn't there the one song that is like your signature tune?

AL: Not really no. Well, there are nice songs; "Ice" I thought was quite nice and was important because it was one of the last tracks we did live. My taste sort of varies between certain tracks and albums. I like that album today and I wake up tomorrow and like another album. It changes.

JB: Is there something you regret not having done?

AL: Always! There's always something of which you think you should've given it more attention but when you've got a limited budget you have to give it the best you can at that particular time and within that budget. There's nothing more you can do. As I'm a perfectionist by nature, which is hell, there's always room for improvement.

JB: Both on Dust And Dreams and Harbour Of Tears you use the talents of Mae McKenna ...

AL: For Dust And Dreams I had written a track called "Rose Of Sharon." I had the voice of Barbara Dickson in mind and she agreed to do it. Came the day when we would record her vocals at Air Studios and suddenly her manager started asking ten grand for it. We said there was no way we could afford this kind of money so in the end we had to look for another singer. Our tour manager suggested Mae and we sort of sang the track to her over the phone. She was very enthusiastic to do it, came into the studio and did it. She sang like an angel! On Harbour Of Tears our collaboration went over the Atlantic. I let her listen to the track over the phone and asked her if she could record the vocals in Britain and then send me the tape. In the end she sent me two versions ... in the wrong key, so I had to call her back and ask her to do it again! My contact with her has been very minimal. We saw each other during the recording of Dust And Dreams, and for Harbour... everything was done over the phone. In any case she was and is a great singer and person.

JB: What's the difference between "Upstairs At Harry's" and "Downstairs At Harry's"?

AL: One studio is in England and the other one's in the States. Well, Harry was my granddad's name and everyone tells me how much I look and act like my granddad, splitting image of a man I never met! In a way Harry became my alterego and so Harry became my studio. I now have a bigger studio which is more interesting because I can get a live band in there, I can even get a small orchestra in if I want. It's about 24 feet by 36 feet which makes it OK.

JB: Listening to Harbour Of Tears is like listening to a soundtrack. Have you ever thought of doing film music?

AL: Yes, always! I always wanted to write music for a film but up until now, no one has asked me to. I came close to a couple of things but in the end it didn't happen. Ant (Anthony Philips, Genesis' first guitarist) and I almost did the Terminator with Schwarzenegger but in the end we didn't do it. I don't know if I could handle it to be honest. To be doing film music you have to be very quick, because in most cases, the music is the very last thing that has to be done. All of the filming has been done and the composer is given a rough edit of the movie to start his work. When you're at that stage the producer and all of the investors want to have the movie out A.S.A.P.! For a major movie you get about three to four weeks and I'm the sort of guy who likes to take his time and who's very critical about what he does. For Harbour Of Tears I wrote ten hours of music which I edited down to the length of the album and all the rest of the music I simply threw away!

JB: Could the ideal situation be writing music for theatre?

AL: I would very much like to do something for theatre, I have always loved theatre, always have done. At one point I had the idea to take Dust And Dreams on the road as a show, but then again I don't have the talent to write scripts. In that field I made a couple of good contacts in the States but not enough to take on such a production. What we are doing is putting together a video which consists of rehearsals, interviews with me, Susan and Colin [Bass], live footage from three shows we recorded one of which Pete came to see, backstage trivia. The guy who's putting it together has his own film company so in the end, who knows, something might result in me doing film music after all.

JB: Rumours have it that this might be the very last Camel tour ever?

AL: Well, it might be, you never know. There's a strong possibility that it might have been our very last German tour because we can no longer afford to go there. It's hard to say but it looks like Camel has lost Germany forever. Putting the entire tour together was such a stressful experience that we talked about the fact that this might possibly be our last tour. Personally I don't think it'll be our last tour because I like touring, but it all depends on how much our next album is going to sell. It basically comes down to economics and book-keeping. Can we still afford to take Camel on the road, yes or no?

JB: One of your secret ambitions is to one day do a blues album ...

AL: I've been meaning to do that for so long that I don't think I'll ever do it. If it takes that long before I actually start doing it then that's not a good sign. After all, people like Steve Hackett and myself are not regarded as blues artists so why should I do it? However there's a part of me that says I should give it a go as I love playing the blues but then again my time management is awful!

JB: Do you know Progfest and/or NEARfest and have you ever been asked to perfrom there?

AL: Oh yes, I know Progfest, and Camel has been asked several times to perform there but it simply didn't work out. As a matter of fact we have been asked for several of these festivals all over America but up until now I have been unable to do it because it happens when the tour is over and my musicians have other commitments. It's a shame though as I'd love to do it one day.

JB: Are you still in touch with Anthony Philips? He has a staggering CD output!

AL: Ant? Mmm, not like I used to. He might come to the gig on Sunday, I don't know. I did buy Tarka on this tour. I saw it in a shop window and just had to have it. We are in contact in a roundabout way. You see, Jonathan Dan, who runs Ant's fanzine Pavillion works for the BBC. I have just released a vintage BBC recording which Jonathan unearthed in the BBC vaults and which Ant mastered for me, so we do keep on working together in a very peculiar way!

JB: Rumours had it that promotors in Holland got nasty faxes from your girlfriend Susan Hoover, threatening to sue them whenever they mentioned the name Camel when promoting Pete Barden's Mirage!

AL: To be honest I didn't know what was happening. I spoke to Andy and he didn't tell me anything. I spoke to Pete before he went to England and he told me he was doing some solo material. None of them told me anything about Mirage. Then I found out by accident what they were really up to and it felt like a takeover. It was like Pete was trying to get the Camel audience and the Caravan audience in one go. The faxes which Susan sent stated that promotors could refer to Camel music in their publicity but they could not say that Mirage consisted of Camel members! They are entitled to perform Camel material but they are NOT Camel members, they are EX-Camel members! I mean, I don't have a problem with Mirage doing Camel material, it's their history as well as mine, but what I didn't like was the fact that they weren't honest about it; that they did it behind my back. It was also very obvious they were doing it for the money because Andy and Pete don't get on!

What happened around the same time was the fact that Pete did an album for a ski movie which included me although I didn't know it! Fact is that I went over to Los Angeles to help Pete out with a demo in his house. As usual I was happy to do it, we laughed and fooled around and had a good time, but what happened is that Pete lifted my vocals off the demo and stuck them on the master! To top it all, the advertising campaign went as far as saying: "including Andy Latimer of Camel," and I didn't know! I wasn't paid at all! I'm singing on an album but don't get any royalties! That's why we put out very business-like statements when Mirage was billed as sort of the second Camel, which they're not.

JB: The Italian Mellow label released a 2CD Camel tribute album, but they never asked your permission to do so. Will you get any royalties and did you hear the album?

AL: I'm pretty sure I will never get a penny out of this project. It's all down to this musical mafia guy Moroni who uses other people's work and puts the money in his own pocket.

He didn't even send me a copy! In the end I went out and bought a copy because I was curious to hear it. I did comment on Mellow's activities on the Internet though. A fan asked me what I thought about Mellow and I said that I was flattered to have a tribute album done about my music, but that I didn't like their attitude. I'm pretty certain none of the bands got paid either. In fact, I shouldn't be surprised if the bands had to pay to be on it!

JB: What are the forthcoming Camel projects?

AL: I told you we will be releasing a video, so as soon as I'm back in the States I'll start to work on that. Then I'll start writing the new album which will be less orchestrated, more of a band effort with a great live feel. It might be a concept thing, but more in the vein of the first Camel albums.

[In the time since this interview was conducted, it seems the video has been shelved, though Latimer is said to be working on material for a new live album for release later this year. Soon work on a new studio album will begin, including the participation of Nathan Mahl keyboardist Guy Le Blanc. Tentative release date is early 2002. {Update 3/2008: Well, that CD was A Nod And A Wink, which came out in 2002; and in 2003 Camel played NEARfest on their farewell (to touring at least) tour; in December 2007, Latimer was recovering from a bone marrow transplant} {2015: in updating this interview, I learned that Guy LeBlanc passed away on April 27, 2015 of kidney cancer} -ed.]

Discography:
Camel (1973/2002*)
Mirage (1974/2002*)
The Snow Goose (1975/2002*)
Moonmadness (1976/2002*)
Rain Dances (1977/1991)
A Live Record (1978/2002*)
Breathless (1978)
I Can See Your House From Here (1979)
Nude (1981)
Chameleon - The Best Of Camel (1981)
The Single Factor (1982)
Stationary Traveller (1984)
Pressure Points - Live (1984)
Compact Compilition (1986)
Landscapes (comp.) (1991)
Dust And Dreams (1991)
Echoes (comp.) (1993)
On The Road '72 (1993)
On The Road '82 (1994)
Never Let Go (1994)
Harbour Of Tears (1996)
Rajaz (1999)
Coming Of Age (1999)
The Paris Collection (2001)
A Nod And A Wink (2002)

Coming Of Age (live, rec 1997, rel 2002)
Pressure Points (live, rec 1984,rel 2003)
Curriculum Vitae (2003)
Footage (2004)
Footage II (2005)
Total Pressure (2007)
Moondances (live, rec 1976/77, rel 2007)
The Opening Farewell (live, rec 2003, rel 2010)
In From The Cold (DVD) (2014)