Malone, Sean (Gordian Knot) (September 2002)

Focusing On The Emergent

This here is an interview I did with Sean Malone a couple months ago. Again, I'm sorry for the delay. Anyways, I think you'll enjoy this one. I know that I'm eagerly awaiting the new Gordian Knot album entitled Emergent, due to be released in January of 2003 under the Sensory label; so, I hope you are too (I love the new mp3 available!). Most of what I really want to say in this introduction is really best said in the interview. Sean and I covered most of the facets involving the new album and some of what's to come as well, so I hope you are not disappointed. Enjoy!

Shawn Lakhani: Thanks for taking the time to do this interview, Sean. So, you are finishing your PhD in Music Theory correct? First, how has your extended understanding of music changed your outlook on music in general? And, how has it helped or affected your work on Gordian Knot especially?

Sean Malone: Studying, teaching, and writing about music hasn't necessarily changed my outlook per se, as much as it has contributed to providing a constant flux of literature, speculation, and understanding; I use that last term rather loosely. During my undergrad years, and even my first graduate work, I was utterly obsessed with formalism - with so much regularity to be found in music I was bent on boxing it all together into one nice, neat, quasi-predictable Gödelian package. Then I learned two things: first, that music is resistant, utterly, to this notion, and much more important that whatever "truth" may be found in music isn't necessarily revealed on where our probing light falls upon it, rather it's what reflects from it. In other words, the truly transcendent part of music - the part that defies the kinds of formal explanations the western canon provides - is what most interests me. One spends a certain amount of time learning the architecture and structure, then a point must come when you try to comprehend the effect of the finished work. It's endless, as it should be, and touches everyone who has some contact with music, no matter what their level of experience or expertise; it's something of the eternal.

SL: The first Gordian Knot album seemed somewhat ambient and spacey I would say. How does the new album, Emergent, compare with its predecessor not only musically but as a work on its own?

SM: Emergent, like Gordian Knot, is a mixed-bag. But I can say that this new CD has a renewed focus on the rhythm section, with all but one song having bass guitar versus Stick bass - the reverse was true on Gordian Knot. There is a lot of Stick on this one, too, but I've since adopted a new tuning, one that resembles a double-treble tuning. In fact, I ended up playing a lot of guitar on this CD, too. But, more importantly there is a larger sense of integration with the new CD, though its reserved only for a few songs. "Singing Deep Mountain," and "Some Brighter Thing" are only two of the songs but represent 75% of the music on the disc. Those were written last and represent the direction I think is most representative of what I'm trying to achieve with this project, and these kinds of records. The other songs are put together in such a way so that their construction is much more linear and transparent, like "The Brook The Ocean" which is essentially Bill [Bruford] and me, and "Fischer's Gambit" which is a feature for Jim Matheos. The idea is to bring a sense of balance; to offset one another.

SL: On the self-titled debut on the Sensory label, you had John Myung, Ron Jarzombek, Trey Gunn, and a few other well established musicians playing on it. How do the new musicians (Matheos, [Paul] Masvidal, Bruford, [Jason] Göbel, ...) on Emergent compliment your compositions, and why did you choose these individuals, above all, to express what you are trying to do?

SM: Bill Bruford has been a hero of mine since I started listening to music, and he continues to be a source of musical inspiration. Working with Jason is an extension of our work in Cynic, only in the sense we have an established musical rapport. Having moved to Oregon, and not too far from where Jason lives, it provided a great way to experiment and see if we could work on another CD together. I think Jason has an approach and feel that is singular, and the fact that our influences are so divergent made sure that we wouldn't be able to become complacent about the material. It wasn't always very easy, but that's the entire point - to grow. Jim's involvement can be traced back to Mike Portnoy. Once Jim and I were in contact (via Mike) I thought there were some places that could use his touch, and he delivered some of the most memorable work on the disc.

SL: When many people think bass player, they think the last guy in the band, if you know what I mean. Basically, why did you choose the bass as your main instrument, and what do you see as its importance both musically and dynamically.

SM: I started playing when I was 16, simply infatuated with Rush and Yes, but more with Rush. All of my friends, in our air-bands, were playing air-guitar and air-drums, so I naturally became the air-bassist. But I think I was captivated by how Geddy managed to do all those things at once - bass, keys, singing - and for whatever reason it resonated with me. I loved the look of his Rickenbacker bass, too, same with Squire's. Some friends in high school actually started playing in a band and I came over one day to watch. It was only drums and guitar, but they had a bass there, and they said "here, you play this ... put your fingers on these dots when I tell you to." And from what I remember, it wasn't that I was thinking "I don't know how to play a musical instrument" but it was more like "he's only using the first three frets or so ... I can manage that ... " and then three frets became four, then five, and it seemed like a big puzzle to me. I was hooked (and no longer an air-bassist) just a really, really, awful bassist. I've got that first day on a tape somewhere.

SL: Has the thought ever crossed your mind again to be part of a constant band, one that tours and tries to become something?

SM: "Become something" is a bit of a loaded term since it seems GK has forged a niche (no matter how small); but yes, part of me would love to be in a steady band. But understand, from my point of view, I have one, just that the players change. Do I want to spend my life on the road? Well, a lot of times I wish I were out there more than I have been the past few years, but I've been concentrating on my degree and juggling too many things as it is. Once things clear up, I'm hoping to devote more time to performing live than I have in recent years.

SL: How was it to play with the Cynic "guys" once again? Was there a certain vibe or chemistry that was still there from before, and could you see an evolvement of musicianship when you played together?

SM: What we already have together I felt was going to be there regardless, so what I was more interested in was how could things be different now, and they're very different. The way the song was going, it seemed like a good song to have everyone play on (Bill plays percussion on it, too) but most people are going to bring their "Cynic ears" to it and compare, when that's the last thing that I, and the rest of the guys are thinking about on this tune [presumably the track Malone means "Muttersprache," which also features Steve Hackett - ed.] I don't want to speak for them, but I think they wouldn't disagree with me when I say that despite the sense of nostalgia, it's nothing like Cynic at all, nor is it meant to be a "reunion" as such, nor is it a commentary on the band's legacy - one that rightfully has much more to do with Paul, Sean, and Jason than it does with me. My time in and contribution to the band aren't insignificant, but only within the context of the sound and style they spent many years developing before I joined. Don't get me wrong, my time with the band and what I feel my contribution might have been are very important to me; Cynic will always be a part of me. But, in other words, I'm hoping those who listen to this CD can approach it with just enough detachment whereby their excitement to hear what we've put together is driven more by a sense of modernity than posterity, because that's the spirit of what went into creating it.

SL: Of course we know that drummer Sean Reinert has played alongside you in many bands and projects (Cynic, both GK's, Aghora, Anomaly, etc...). How do you two complement each other as a rhythm section? And, is there a certain comfortableness you have when he is the drummer, a certain understanding?

SM: However we may or may not complement each other is a description best left to those who listen to us rather than either one of us trying to describe it. Clearly, having worked with him for almost ten years, we've developed a rapport - one that I've never had with any other player on any instrument. It's very hard to describe, but perhaps that's best ... but there were nights on tour that will remain with me all my life as some of the most transcendent musical and emotional experiences that I may ever encounter. That's part of the curse of being musician ... the search for that type of ecstasy (and I mean that in the Glenn Gould sense, not any kind of contrived, drug-induced sense) that drives a musician to better understand his or her craft.

For years now, after Cynic, Sean and I have been traveling divergent though seemingly parallel paths - there was always just enough gravity to pull us together to a common ground. However, I think now that our musical interests have grown very far apart, at least conceptually and compositionally, and I'm not sure we may be able to again find that common ground to be honest. I say that mainly in the context of GK and his own work - it doesn't mean we'll never play again, and it doesn't mean I wouldn't ask him to play if the context was right, but it seems most likely it would be in the context of a third party, if it were to happen. Sean has always been the first person I think of when it comes to drums because he's amazing; by playing with him he inspires me to be a better player and composer (as all great musicians inspire), I've learned from watching him create and I'm lucky to have been able to play with him all these years. Most people search a lifetime for that kind of musical teamwork, so I'm fortunate to have experienced it to such a high degree.

SL: What's your opinion of the music industry, especially the way people gravitate towards what's popular? How does a musician like yourself fit into the industry with what you are trying to accomplish?

SM: Again, where I fit in (or not) has more to do with the people who listen to and market the music. It's not really possible for me to comment on GK's place in the industry, that's a job better left to SoundScan. I'm just lucky that I get to make these records, with musicians that I admire, and that the music has a global audience.

SL: Who have been your most important influences, not only as a bass player, but as a musician as well? And, what bands do you feel, at the present moment, are truly progressing in the definition of the word?

SM: I'm happy to say that, at this point, it's impossible to simply rattle off a list of influences with regard to my musical foundation; it is built upon daily through composing, listening, teaching, analyzing, and performing.

"Progressive" as a musical style defies definition, and that's really the whole point. The idea of progress has both synchronic and diachronic properties; in other words, it's a combination of what's happening at the moment with what will happen over time. When you try to define the word, you seemingly have to choose one or the other, and get caught up in particles when it's much more like a wave.

As far as other bands go, I have no opinion as to who may or may not be "progressing," that's not something I focus on; if I like it, then I like it, that's good enough for me - whether or not it's "progressive" doesn't mean much to me.

SL: Why the title Emergent for the new GK album?

SM: The title reflects the notion of properties that become apparent as the result of some combination in a particular setting or circumstance. For example, take a 747 - there isn't any one person who can tell you how every last part of that plane works, from the aerodynamics, to the wiring, to the hydraulics, etc. It involves a team that brings to it sufficient expertise and experience to get their part to work. So we can say that the fact a 747 can function as it does is emergent behavior. Emergent behavior is also a large part of cognitive science, particularly artificial intelligence ... anyway, that's the dry, technical explanation.

As far as this record goes, I began to notice that no matter how much planning I bring to the music, the final product is ultimately emergent. As involved as I am in every aspect of the material, I am also still an observer to it. And again, this is what keeps it interesting for me; it has less to do with chance than it has to do with the byproduct of design, though there is always an element of chance in music.

SL: Do you see yourself as a perfectionist? Does it help you or does it make it more difficult for you to create?

In the sense that I'm never satisfied with anything, it's impossible, and I suppose it's for the best, despite how torturous it can be. Composing, at times, is almost like seeing, off in the distance, someone you love about to be hit by a car, and for whatever reason, you're unable to scream "look out" - you stand and stare as you try to figure out how to get those words out of your mouth, as if your lips are sewn shut and it takes every ounce of strength just to produce a barely audible mumble. Sometimes it's enough to warn the person (meaning, a composition or performance I may listen to once in a while), but usually, I'm left only to watch the accident. Each new piece, then, is another chance to prevent the accident. That's a bit gruesome, but I think you get the idea. "Singing Deep Mountain" on the new CD is probably the first time I was able to produce an audible warning; it's the closest I've come to being satisfied with something inasmuch in its ability to express what inspired it. The hardest thing to do is stay true to the essence of a composition while you're writing it - what belongs versus what you impose - but I think listeners will be able to apprehend the arc of that song if they spend enough time with it.

A piece of music usually starts from a very small and basic idea, and then the large scale structure reveals itself. From then on out one has to try and acquiesce to that design. "Muttersprache" was just the opposite - I had to fight that song every step of the way, just couldn't tap into the foundation of that song, but I felt there was something worthwhile there so I stuck with it. Jason and I tossed around maybe a dozen different arrangements. The song, originally, is about 10 minutes long and we knocked it down to 6 or so. I took a very segmented approach with that song - sudden starts and stops instead of smooth transitions. The thematic material is introduced in the first minute or so but doesn't unfold until well after two thirds of the song has gone past. Whereas with "A Shaman's Whisper," I decided to hint at a final chorus toward the end, but instead left it as a solo for Paul. There are several sections that build, such as Paul's first solo, which afterwards you'd expect a large, final statement of the theme from the chorus, but instead the dynamics return to a soft level and Jason delivers a beautiful chord-melody version with clean guitar. To me it leaves just enough expectation to be denied, which is a commentary on what inspired the music.

SL: Can you explain the new GK album in your own words? Maybe you can describe some of the songs so we can get an idea of what to expect?

SM: Arsis: A deep breath.
Muttersprache: A show of hands.
A Shaman's Whisper: The moment the eggshell cracks.
Fischer's Gambit: When it's done.
The Brook The Ocean: His name should not merely mean brook...
Some Brighter Thing: There must be.
Singing Deep Mountain: Singing Deep Mountain.

SL: I see that Scott Burns helped to mix the album. What was it like to work with Scott once again?

SM: It's always great working with Scott; there's just something about the way he hears things that can really add to a mix. This CD was very difficult to mix because there are so many contrapuntal layers - you can't hear everything and it came out sounding a bit dark. But bouncing ideas off Scott, as well as Mark, were critical to the mixing of this CD; I can't thank them enough. I wish I could do all my records with them. And it's not about "perfect" mixes and "perfect" tone and all that ... I've never been bogged down by the agendas of mix/mastering engineers. Could this CD sound better? Sure, but there's always better. Instead, I'm just lucky I've got some friends who continue to help me out and teach me, and make the unbearably torturous process of mixing a record a little more bearable.

SL: It seems that you and drummer Bill Bruford worked together a great deal on this album. Of course all the musicians are great, but what made it special to work with Bill?

MS: As I stated earlier, I've been listening to Bill ever since I started listening to music. To make the leap from fan to collaborator is a rather large one to say the least, but once we started working it couldn't have gone more smoothly. He is as professional as they come, and one of the nicest people you'll ever meet. I hope we get to work together on the next one.

SL: Now, regarding the Matheos-Portnoy-Moore project (Orchestra of Strategic Influence) that you will be part of, can you tell us any new info or what direction the music takes?

[Aug 2010: whether "orchestra" was a typo never corrected (and still not), I don't recall now, but I did want to say, the project is Office of Strategic Influence, or O.S.I., for short. -ed.]

SM: Well, it's Jim's project and I'm not really at liberty to divulge any details. I want to respect Jim's vision of how he'd like things represented, which means he's the spokesperson for the group, just as he has respected my intentions for GK.

Essentially, I'm just adding my own bass parts to the CD and am not part of the writing team. There may be a small bass piece included that I wanted to put on Emergent but decided not to, but that's all up to Jim.

SL: You said on your site that you are, "Looking forward to just being the bass player." How do you think this new project will help you grow and learn, and how great of an honor was it to be chosen for this "all-star" ensemble?

SM: It's an honor because compared to me, all those other guys are big-time rock stars, but more importantly because they're great players and are icons in the genre. I've known Mike for a while and had a feeling that we may one day collaborate in some way, reinforced by some communication around the time of TransAtlantic. This will be a stretch for me stylistically, but that's the whole point. I'm very curious to see what pocket I can find with Mike - there's no guarantee it will be there, but my feeling is it will be something special. Past that, I hope to add a few touches here and there, depending on what the music sounds like - some Stick here, some piano there, a touch of melody here - who knows. What I try to do with a project like this, or for Aghora for example, is attempt to tie the rhythm section to the middle register of the harmony so that I'm not rhythmically competing with the drums but at the same time anchoring it to the local harmony. I like to try and lengthen gestures and phrases - like the opening bass line in "Rivers Dancing," it's a simple 4/4 groove in the drums, but I played a repeated line in 6/8 on top, emphasizing the tonic and flat two, which added a little harmonic spice. So unless you're really focusing on that, it goes by unnoticed, but has the side effect of lengthening phrases in a very subtle way. I much prefer to play over the barline - but so does Mike - so we'll just have to see what happens...

SL: This might be a tough question, but here it goes. Who is Sean Malone?

SM: Sean Malone is some guy who registered www.seanmalone.com before I did, that's why I had to use www.seanmalone.net.

SL: Now to my final question, Sean. What lies ahead for you? What do you feel is left to accomplish as a musician personally?

SM: I'd like to continue with the Gordian Knot series as an outlet for my own composing, but at the same time would like to be involved with another group at some level where I get the opportunity to do some regular touring again. I plan to continue writing books and pursuing my research interests, and teaching of course. But despite best-laid plans, one can only wait to see what ultimately emerges.

Discography:
Gordian Knot (1999)
Emergent (2003)