Hackett, Steve (June 2005)

Into The Pool Of Memory With Steve Hackett

It has been quite a few years since former Genesis guitarist has blessed his legion of fans with a new recording of classically based nylon string guitar work. His new release, Metamorpheus, coming eight years after 1997's A Midsummers Night's Dream, is a potent collection of classical guitar and orchestral beauty, shamelessly emotional and powerfully evocative. Released in 2005, Steve Hackett's latest work is the prolific guitarist's eighteenth solo album, and his fifth as a classical guitarist. His stellar career includes seven groundbreaking albums with the progressive rock giant Genesis, influential solo releases such as Voyage Of The Acolyte, Spectral Mornings and Guitar Noir, and brilliant collaborations with Yes guitarist Steve Howe in the short lived GTR; with John Wetton, Chester Thompson and Bill Bruford on Hackett's Genesis Revisited, and with King Crimson alumni Ian McDonald on 2003's To Watch The Storms.

I recently spoke to Steve about the genesis of this new project, and, of course, we spoke about that old band Hackett used to play for as well. Hackett's honesty and openness about his music and his musical inspiration is refreshing, and fascinating as well. Now in his fourth decade as a musician and recording artist, his insights on the music industry and his revelations about his years with Genesis are not to be overlooked.

Tom Karr: Hi Steve, how about we start off with Metamorpheus and some questions about your solo career, and then if we have the time, we can talk about Genesis?

Steve Hackett: Sure, ok.

TK: When I first started listening to the new album I thought, ok, this is nice. But when I took out the CD insert and started to read the story of Orpheus and Eurydice that goes along with each cut, I was struck with the amount of text that this music carries, yet with no text.

SH: Yeah, I tried to give a background to the story.

TK: Can you tell me about the writing process, how you used your compositional tools to achieve that ability to tell a story through instrumental music?

SH: Well, the process, it has to be a personal one to start with. If you're moved to play nylon stringed guitar and you like the sound of orchestras and nylon guitar together, then that places you in a good position to be able to do something with those elements. The more I work with nylon guitar, the more I find I'm trying to be specific about the picture I'm trying to create. So it really starts with pictures in the mind. I had the idea of working on this story, you know, from way back really. And most of it was written in one year. Umm, I can't let you in too much on the creative process except to say that sometimes it goes quickly, sometimes it goes very slowly, sometimes there's a lot of frustration in it and sometimes there's a lot of joy in it. I can find myself very moved by certain things that are going on in the story and I get moved by the music. There's a lot of melancholy in it, but there's also a lot of triumph in it, too.

TK: Yeah, there's an underlying sadness to a lot of this music, up until the end of the story.

SH: Right. Yeah, and I used to be afraid of that. I used to think, you know, if anyone said something was melancholic that I'd done, I thought, wow, you know, I'd better be careful here. Maybe I'm showing too much of my feelings. But I'm a bit older now, so I'm a bit bolder with my feelings. I let myself, umm... .I let myself shed tears over it.

TK: Well, with this music and with progressive rock as well, there are occasions to shed tears. The music can be that beautiful. It's very emotional music.

SH: That's right! It is very emotional music, and a lot of classical is very emotional music, and it's not really limited to that, you know? A pop song can be very emotional. You're looking for a reflection of your own experience in any song that moves you and if you try and have a look back at the roots of progressive music, I figure that Jimmy Webb's "McArthur Park" has got a tremendous amount of pathos in it.

TK: Yeah, that's an apt word for it.

SH: Yeah, you know? Lost love. He's a master at writing that sort of tune.

TK: Tell me something about the voice of your guitar on Metamorpheus. After going through it a few times, I came to the conclusion that your guitar was the voice of Orpheus, his voice, his Lyre, and that the predominance of the orchestra later on reflects Orpheus's loss of his music, his connection, after the loss of Euridyce. Umm, am I wrong here?

SH: Well, in a way, I kind of feel that each time the guitar plays, it kind of raises a question, and then it's answered, usually, by this huge, massive sound that is the orchestra and that's part of the drama of the whole thing. But then spiritually, and this depends on your individual belief really, it almost seems to be, it almost seems that when the orchestra speaks, it's supposed to be God's voice really. You know? That's really it, although I would say that I probably don't believe in a God in the Christian sense of the word. It's another type of thing, which is not someone who sits in judgment, but, you know, something that we're all part of. Some people call it the universal overmind, call it what you like. The idea is this, there comes a point where I would like to think that all experience is shared, and whatever that is, that's my cosmic idea of a God of sorts.

TK: Your playing on some of these pieces, like "To Earth Like Rain" and "The Return To The Realm Of Eternal Renewal" is quite intense. You're doing some really difficult work and you make all the most challenging passages seem pretty effortless. From your point of view, what rough edges does your classical style still have?

SH: Well, to let you in on the process, I record in very small sections, sometimes one chord at a time in order to get the mood right. Often I can't play it back in one go. I figure I'm making a record, first of all, and a live performance is something else. In terms of rough edges, well, I think that whoever is playing, no one ever thinks they're really good enough, do they?

TK: No, you're right.

SH: That's why we all keep working on, or getting better at what we do, and if you're talking about "The Realm Of Eternal Renewal" and what follows, which is "Lyra," then you've got, well, it's almost like the effect of the Russian composers who wrote great things for piano and orchestra, and so I've tried to do with the guitar what Rachmaninoff might have done with his "Piano Concerto No. 2," so it's a mixture of very busy piano passages with strings playing very slowly over the top, orchestra playing very slowly, I should say, because there's lots of other things. I always automatically say strings. Then you've got sort of a Tchaikovsky like melody going on, so I'm trying to get the guitar to do what the piano does, which is to be a mass of notes, and try to color it in a very busy sort of way, very complicated, very busy, but hopefully the whole effect at the end of the day is very simple.

TK: Yeah, it is. And in progressive rock music, of course in classical music especially, there is always so much going on, yet with the effort to keep it simple sounding in the end. You know, the simplicity belies the complexity.

SH: That's right, You know, I think I noticed that with Bach's work, ah ? he's very complicated, technically very difficult and demanding, but at the end there's still this beautiful simplicity that runs through it because he's melodically so strong that whatever he's doing, that although he's exploring all these chords, there's this line that seems to run through them and he just seems to take you off on this glorious journey that makes you think it's superhuman. It's just wonderful. And of course, at their peak, all of these composers have the ability to be able to, you know, just sort of make you weep, just at the sheer effort that's gone into it.

TK: Yes, exactly.

SH: My God, how is it possible for a human being to come up with this stuff, much less play it? So?

TK: Yeah, yeah. I have that reaction to a lot of progressive rock as well.

SH: Sure, of course.

TK: You wonder where something like "The Fountain Of Salmacis" or "Close To The Edge" comes from, how it's possible to even conceive of some of these things.

SH: Yeah, you wonder where it comes from, but it's a team that comes up with those things. Of course a "Fountain Of Salmacis" is largely keyboard based and, you know, we were trying to be an orchestra. That similarity runs through Genesis' work and Yes' work of that period.

TK: Let's talk about a few more things related to Metamorpheus alright? The playing approach, the sheer physical requirements of the acoustic as opposed to the electric guitar are so different. Did you immerse yourself with the classical guitar, more or less, during the recording of Metamorpheus?

SH: Well, yes. I think that when I was writing it, and it took about a year, I was going through an emotional period in my life at that time, and so I was trying to express my own sadness at that time. I think it was written a lot more quickly that some of the other stuff I do in that vein, but then it took a while to get it recorded and funded and scored out and all the rest. Quite a slow process really.

TK: Did you score it? The score for the orchestra?

SH: Well, what I did with the score is, I take it as far as I can with the guitar and I write down as many things as I can, but then I also work with one or two keyboard players. In this case it was Roger King and Jerry Peal, and we worked with samples so that we could get to hear what it would sound like. I mean there's a reason for working with keyboards. I find that you can access more harmonies like that. And you're hearing it back, it's been sequenced, you're hearing it back, the computer memory is playing it, you get much more of an idea of how it's going to sound. But I'm there for every note, I'm working with the keyboard player, you know, can we try this harmony there? Can we use more open spacing? Is it a little bit too dense? Have we got things too crowded down near the bottom? Ahh... it's a long, involved process. I wouldn't advise it for anyone who isn't in love with the eventual effect of what an orchestra can sound like playing your work. It, it takes a long time, but I think the rewards are there when you've got something right at the end of the day, you know? There's this instinctive feeling that it sounds like convincing orchestration, not just like a guitar, or a keyboard player or a just a bunch of samples, you know? By the time you've got real people playing it, you've got to have your act down. I'm not saying that you've got to be a reader. I'm not saying you have to be a fluent reader, but having the imagination and the patience is what you've gotta have, that, and a willing team.

TK: You have a wonderful ambience to the sound, a very open sound on this work, I mean. I haven't heard a lot of releases that sound like that. The simplicity is pretty enticing.

SH: Thank you. The orchestra, they were all recorded one instrument at a time, that's how we worked with them. So it's not that many people, and they're all tracked up heavily, so that's the effect.

TK: Can you tell me something about your interest in mythology? I mean, you spent so much time really presenting this story of Orpheus and Eurydice so beautifully.

SH: Well, you mentioned early Genesis and you mentioned "The Fountain Of Salmacis," and what I find about mythology is that it, where mythology ends and religion starts, and where poetry begins, there's a very fine line, and they all really borrow from each other. The difference is that religion hails hypothesis as certainty, whereas, I think, the poet allows himself more leeway and the artist is allowed to interpret it in whatever medium he chooses. In the case of Rodan, he sculpted Orpheus and Eurydice, and Rainer Marie Rilke was his secretary for a few years and he wrote wonderful poems about the subject, sonnets to Orpheus. So, you know, this is a story that is very, very old, probably handed down with a kind of oral tradition, and Ovid was probably the first to write on it, and, it's hard to think of someone like Ovid writing this kind of stuff and, and of being at odds with the authorities of his day and having to sort of hide himself away. So that's what poets went through then and now; of course, they seem like they're the establishment, they're part of the curriculum. So, I guess it's a procession of heroes, but it's more a case of finding parallels with things that are mentioned in mythology, and you find parallels with your own life, and you think, well, if I was able to do that, would I do that, would I go that far?

TK: Yeah, it's really challenging to even think about it.

SH: Yeah, like in Orpheus's case, he goes into the underworld to retrieve his lost love, and obviously, there's a tremendous amount of fear that's there with that, if that were the case, and so you figure, for a start, that love is stronger than fear.

TK: And for myself, I wonder, would I have the trust and the confidence to not look back. That seems to be the pivotal point, you know?

SH: Yeah, well that's the moment isn't it? He's not supposed to look back, and of course, taken literally, it's one thing, and taken metaphorically it's another. It's another thing entirely. What's implied there is that, that maybe we shouldn't be nostalgic, and we shouldn't look back. You know, one or two other people I've spoken to, someone said, a lady writer said, that his weakness was that he didn't trust her enough. So, it's a multi-level thing, how you want to read it. And also you could say, and I'll stick my neck out here and say, that this is the subtext to every musicians life. You know, first you learn how to play and your hoping that you can re-energize people with music, but implied in this tale is that music is going to attempt to save a life and do all these things, so it brings in all these things. It brings in the whole pantheon of things, you mention one figure in Greek mythology and it brings in all the others. They all impinge on the others. Apollo is supposed to be his father, Calliope his mother and so on and so forth.

TK: Let me ask you about your brother John. Was Voyage Of The Acolyte the first album you made with John?

SH: Yes. Oh no, actually, funnily enough, we were both involved for a short time with a band called Quiet World, and just before I joined Genesis we did an album with them, but at that [time] I don't think John was playing flute, or had just started, so he was just playing a bit of rhythm guitar, uncredited, but the guys in that band figured that they wanted to involve him.

TK: How far back does your collaboration with your brother go? What age were you when you first got instruments and what did you play?

SH: Well, John played guitar before the flute and I played the harmonica. I was playing from a very young age. My mother says I was playing harmonica from the age of two or three, but I can't believe I was playing tunes then. I think, certainly, by the time I was four I was playing tunes, but I didn't understand what chords were and what they did, I just wondered for years, and because none of us were trained, you know, what was that thing that gave direction to notes and made them go up or down? I realized much later that those things were chords and it wasn't till I was twelve, thirteen or fourteen that I took an interest in guitar, enough to really want to play it. I was fascinated by guitar music as a kid, usually electric guitar things.

TK: One of the things that really stands out on Genesis Revisited was that a few touring members of Genesis got a chance to apply their hand to some classic Genesis material. Tell me a bit about the interpretation that Bruford or Chester Thompson brought to those tracks.

SH: I think they brought something unique to it. In the case of Chester, the songs that I played with him, he had played those live with the band, and I think he was more familiar with those, whereas Bill had not actually played the drums on "Watcher Of The Skies," for instance, but he had certainly played the drums to "Firth Of Fifth." But there were moments when Phil (Collins) wouldn't be singing the lead, and he'd join in on drums and you'd have two drummers going, and in fact we attempted to do that. We did two drum takes of Bill. In fact, we did multi-takes of things, and then that middle section which I stuck in which wasn't in the original? You know?

TK: Yeah.

SH: Well, I think Bill's playing is extraordinary, very tribal and it sounds amazing, actually.

TK: You've played with many of the well-known alumni of the major progressive rock bands. Anyone left that you would like to record or tour with that you haven't already tried?

SH: Well, that's a difficult one. I've attempted to record with one or two people, and it hasn't always been successful, but most of the time it is. I tend to work best with people on a one to one basis, I find. That might seem a bit cold to some people, but I figure it takes two people to have a conversation and three to have an argument.

TK: There's an observation, huh?

SH: Yeah. So as I say, I like to work on a one to one. What I prefer to do is to have some kind of sketch laid out, and say to someone, do you think you can work to this sketch? I mean, if they really feel the need to work eyeball to eyeball with another musician who's just playing away, if that gets the best out of them, then I try to set up a situation where that can be done. You've just got to find the key to everyone's talents, it seems to me.

TK: Let's talk about album making in general. You're in your fourth decade of recording. Do you feel that the craft, the art, of album making has degenerated during those four decades? Has sampling and digital technology enhanced the creative process or has it replaced it?

SH: I tell you what, I think that what we're sitting on is a time where music can potentially sound wonderful, because you've got incredible technology available and at the same time there are incredible players out there. But what tends to happen is that people tend to go for one or the other. They don't think of mixing the two. I'm for using all the way up to a full orchestra, and sampling at the same time, and a band. I'd like to think that everything can be hooked up. You know, obviously in the day when the Beatles were working, and doing incredible work, they had incredible manpower at their disposal. Guys who were at the top of their professions, you know, that had the world's ear, and they decided to exploit that privilege and stretch themselves musically and sonically, and I got the feeling that a lot of hard work was put in there. But now, of course, we've got sampling and all sorts of stuff, but it seems to me that the best way to work is to let samplers sound mechanical.

TK: And use real instruments to sound like real instruments?

SH: Yeah, use real instruments to be expressive, and that's what I'm working on at the moment, trying to mix the two. I'm trying to get the best out of both worlds, but trying to get the juxtaposition of the two.

TK: Let's talk about Genesis; may we? Do you think you can sum up what it is about the classic Genesis sound that has made this music so revered by so many for the last thirty or more years? I mean, come on, there's been a cottage industry for some time in sounding just like Genesis. What did the band have that others didn't?

SH: I think it's because the writing was good, for a start. I like to think that the writing was good because everyone was writing their brains out in that band, in order to contribute something. We were trying to get the best out of everyone's brain child. I think that can be very strong, when everyone is invited to write, and they're all sympathetic to each other. Now that's part of it, but I can't say what it is about one person's record versus another's. I'm not even sure that it boils down to originality, because I can detect the influences. But it seems like, if you've got a bunch of individuals who are all into different things, like in the case of Phil (Collins), he was into big band stuff, he used jazz rhythms, and he was able to make stuff swing. By dividing up, sometimes, the melody lines that were given to him and serving them up in a new and very fresh way, sometimes something that started out life as something that might be sort of legato and all floaty, quite introverted really, with the right rhythm it could sound very driving and energizing. So I think it's everyone's contribution that makes it work, really. And there was humor in there; humor, I think, is important.

TK: Tell me about that. Where did that come from? Was that all of you, or Peter (Gabriel)?

SH: I think in the main it was Peter, with contributions from the rest of us. We were all free to suggest ideas, but you can't always expect that a singer is going to go, wow, at your latest idea for something, whether it's a lyric or a joke or whatever. But sometimes, when the guy runs with the ball it can be fantastic.

TK: And there is that somewhat skewed outlook on things that is so much a part of the lyrics.

SH: I'm always trying to analyze music and why it works and why it doesn't and I think there's an aspect of pantomime to it, there's an aspect of humor, a bit of classical music in there, there's a nod to folk music from time to time, certainly there are experiments going on, trying to make one thing sound like another.

TK: Another question about Genesis. I just read the latest edition of Progression magazine (Progression #48) and there's an interview with Phil Collins, who says that the chances of a full reunion of Genesis are,... I believe he said, are as likely as not, perhaps more likely than not. Is there any ongoing talk of doing something like that, any serious talk? Has the time come?

SH: I don't think there's serious talk about it, as far as I'm aware. It would take one of us to take the bull by the horns and start phoning up everybody else. I, I've made it known to Tony, certainly, that if the band were to reform, it would be interesting, I think. Realistically, I don't know if you'd get a full tour out of everybody, but maybe you'd get a show, and it would probably have to cover the band's history, and the last time we attempted something like this in the early eighties; I was involved in a small way with that. But I would like to think that we all take each other sufficiently seriously by now to figure that we can all bring something to it.

I don't know about making a record together. You know, some people like to work faster than others, and I've not been used to working in a corporate atmosphere for some time, and that's what bands are, they're little corporations. But you know, it's five people and, and honor must be satisfied and that can be a very tricky thing, you know? When everyone considers himself to be a general and you've got an army to lead, it can be a bit tricky. You know, in the days when one was a loyal foot soldier in the band, it can be very difficult. It's like going back to being a member of the crew when you've been the captain of your own ship for a long time. You're used to having solo careers and autonomy, be bandleaders. It can be very difficult to go backwards, to adopt the old ways.

TK: Well, the old way for you was that you answered an ad and took the job for fifteen pounds a week, no?

SH: Well yeah, that was it. Just give me fifteen quid a week and I'll be fine about it. Feed me on sausage rolls and I'll be ok.

TK: How long did the "new guy" status last? When did you move from the hired hand to being one of the guys?

SH: Well, when I first joined, I think that for the first two albums I didn't think that I was. I didn't feel as though I had divine right to the guitar chair, if you know what I mean. I thought that, any minute now the game could be up, but when we did Selling England By The Pound in 1973... So umm, I was with the band for 71, 72, and 1973, I felt that we were...

TK: You felt you were on equal terms by then?

SH: Well, I felt I was definitely giving it something as a player, and I felt there was a contribution that was complete. But I was more interested in being a player and I was more interested in fusion at that point than I was about writing songs, let alone being a composer, so I would come in with riffs or little ideas all the time, at the time. That was my way to make thing work.

TK: Well I certainly enjoyed your time as just the hired hand as well. Your playing on your first two albums with the band (Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot) was just outstanding, infinitely expressive.

SH: There was a lot of joy when I did Nursery Cryme with the band. I was trying very hard to get the best out of myself and the band, my instrument, and also to be complementary to the others. You know, part of working in a band and getting the best out of a band is to realize that you're not so much in competition with people, you've got to try and bring out the best in them, and if somebody starts playing something incredible over in the corner, it's very important to go up and say that that's really good and we should use it. Why don't we assist each other rather than trying to outdo each other? You've only got one chance at this really, and you'll be in a situation in a band at some point, and it's very important that some characters provide the glue, and even if you feel that your contribution is very small, you still have to try and draw the best out of who you consider to be the giants. Umm, that's another way of writing tunes, there you're working as an editor almost, or in house critic. You can be those things, you can have what you consider a passive songwriting role, but it can be very effective. People like to know when they're doing well, and your small contribution can be a big one in the overall scheme of things.

TK: Did you notice how quickly your guitar sound and style began to be copied after the release of Nursery Cryme?

SH: Well, I was trying to play lines that were non-guitaristic. I was trying to play the kind of lines you might have heard more from a string player or a violinist, or something like that.

TK: Which was what brought about the two handed tapping?

SH: Well, there was that as well, that was more like trying to play like a keyboard player, but also I was trying to write lines that were more like vocal lines, because in the main, when people play electric guitar, when they're playing rock, they tend towards blues phrases, and they can be wonderful in another context, very authentic, but I would say, try and think like a singer. Try and give the singer a run for his money.

TK: But you did notice that eventually, ah, half the guitar players in progressive rock bands were copping your sound, that have any impact on you, one way or the other?

SH: I don't know whether that was the case or not, but I'd rather be modest about that and say that I think there were a number of people around at the time, you know? Maybe there was something that I hit on, but you know, everything I did was the summation of my influences, of the people I've listened to. I think maybe there was a little corner of opportunity for the guitar to do something in a band that had very dense textures. At times there wasn't always room for the guitar to move freely when you had dense keyboards, busy keyboard areas, and I was forced to come up with atmospheric ideas for the guitar and so I learned how to weave in and out of keyboard textures. At times it was frustrating for me that I wasn't able to do more, but occasionally I felt that we had really hit on something.

Indeed they had hit on something, and Hackett has been hitting that something for over thirty years now. Like the journey of Orpheus, Steve's music will take the listener from the sunlit heights to the darkest depths of the underworld. And where one might lose all to doubt, his confident musical steps keep his playing and composing on an upward path.

Discography:
Voyage Of The Acolyte (1975)
Please Don't Touch (1978)
Spectral Mornings (1979)
Defector (1980)
Cured (1981)
Highly Strung (1983)
Bay Of Kings (1983)
Til We Have Faces (1983)
Momentum (1988)
Time Lapse (1992)
The Unauthorised Biography (1992)
Guitar Noir (1994)
Blues With A Feeling (1994)
There Are Many Sides To The Night (1994)
A Midsummer's Night Dream (1997)
Watcher Of The SKies: Genesis Revisited (1997)
The Tokyo Tapes (1997)
Darktown (1999)
Sketches Of Satie (2000) (w/John Hackett) Feedback '96 (2000)
Live Archive 70s 80s 90s (2001)
To Watch The Storms (2003)
Live Archive NEARfest (2003)
Metamorpheus (2005) (w/The Underworld Orchestra)
Live Archive 05 (2005) Live Archive 83 (2006) Wild Orchids (2006) Tribute (2008) Out Of The Tunnel's Mouth (2010) Beyond The Shrouded Horizon (2011) Genesis Revisited II (2012)
Wolflight (2015)

The Tokyo Tapes (1997)
Hungarian Horizons - Live In Budapest (DVD) (2003)
Somewhere In South America - Live In Buenos Aires (DVD) (2003)
Live Legends (rec 1990, rel 2004)
Once Above A Time (DVD) (2004)
Spectral Mornings (rec 1978, rel 2005)
Fire & Ice (2011)
Genesis Revisited: Live At Hammersmith (2013)
Genesis Revisited: Live At The Royal Albert Hall (2013)

With Genesis:

Nursery Crime (1971)
Foxtrot (1972)
Live (1973)
Selling England By The Pound (1973)
Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (1974)
Wind And Wuthering (1976)
Trick Of The Tail (1976)
Seconds Out (1977)
Three Sides Live (1982)

With GTR:

GTR (1986)