Lucassen, Arjen Anthony (Ayreon, Star One, ...) (August 2004)

A Sum Of Parts: Inside The Human Equation

Arjen Anthony Lucassen is probably best known as the man behind the Ayreon project, the juggernaut that has so far released six albums in nine years, most recently, The Human Equation in May 2004. On the series of successes with Into The Electric Castle, the pair of The Universal Migrator CDs, and splitting the Ayreon personality into two (one leading towards the Ambeon project of 2001, the other to the Star One project of 2002), there was a lot of anticipation for this latest Ayreon release. Certainly in its own right, but also due to the participation of those who help bring life to an Ayreon project. Among those guests this time around are Dream Theater's James LaBrie, Strapping Young Lad's Devin Townsend, Mostly Autumn's Heather Findley, and, a new vocal discovery, Marcela Bovio of Elfonia.

I had the chance to talk with Lucassen about the new album and what it was all about in mid-June. He called just after his dinner, 6pm his time, and not too long after I had breakfast, 9am my time; such is the time difference between the West Coast of the US and the Western European country of The Netherlands.

Stephanie Sollow: So I've been listening to the CD and I've been enjoying that. It's very intensely emotional.

Arjen Lucassen: It definitely is, yeh, yeh. And humorous.

[Both chuckle]

SS: I know creative people hate this kind of question, but... but it's the kind of question I think about ... what inspired the story in The Human Equation?

AL: Well, basically the music. I start writing the music and I let the music inspire me to come up with the story. And this time I noticed that the music was very, very extreme. In fact, it went to very soft parts, you know, to very heavy parts. And really, really different styles, and I thought as well very different emotions. Also I was watching - I did a tour with Star One a couple of years ago - well, what? One year ago? Anyway, we recorded it on DVD and I was watching it on DVD and I noticed that on stage there were so many emotions, you know. This part with a double bass on it, people were banging their heads, then we were playing "Valley Of The Queens," a beautiful ballad, and people were crying. Then we were joking around on stage and people were laughing. We were playing a song like "Into The Black Hole," which is all mysterious and all. So many emotions. And when I see other shows, like, like another band or metal band, or whatever or program. I usually only see one emotion. So, uh, as I said, emotions are the key word. So um ... I said, well, what's it like doing a story all about emotions... But how do you do that? All the stuff I've done before is very science-fiction heavy. But I thought well, why not take away the science-fiction attached to it and just base it on the emotions. And have singers actually portraying those emotions. So that was the first idea I had. And I was thinking, okay, how can I have singers portray emotions? There must be a main character who must be confronting his own emotions. When are you doing that? Maybe if, if you're dreaming or something. So I came up with the story, why not about a man who's in a coma? And no one knows what's happening to a man in a coma. Is he still thinking? Maybe he's fighting for his life, and he's fighting with his emotions, confronting his emotions, and the outcome of his battle will decide whether he lives or dies.

SS: I notice also it was kind of, at least at first - and I don't want to give anything away when we publish this, but initially you don't think it's within the same kind of ... in the mileau of the other Ayreon albums. And ... until the end [laughter]. But you're right, there is a lot of different ranges, because you get the metal aspect to it; and this very light, lyrical, Celtic... with the flute.. throughout. So, yeh, I think you have really captured that. Because I'm sitting there - well, most of the time I was listening at work, so I couldn't sit there and really focus, but I'd keep turning around and look at the stereo go "oh, okay." I gotta study this!

[more laughter, which I seem to do throughout, alternating with "right, right"]

SS: So, it's been out only about month now [at the time of the interview]. Are you pleased with the reaction to it so far?

AL: I'm, I'm amazed. More than pleased. I was like ... when I'm working on project I'm always very particular. In a way. I'm thrilled with that, because ... I keep working until I'm a 100 percent satisfied. As it gets closer to release, I'm getting worried, you know. "Oh, it's not good; oh it's horrible. There's so many styles, who's going to love this." Like, people who like Celtic, you know, the metal stuff is going to scare them away. Or people who like metal have to get through all these very soft parts, the classical parts and folky parts. I thought, "oh no."

I'd given it to friends to listen to, you know. And the reactions of the people scared me even more. Because I played it back for friends and musicians and stuff like, you know, and they were going, "yeh, yeh, Arjen, this is great. I have to get used to it. I only played it once. And? I'll have to get back to you." And I thought, "oh shit." And then luckily a week later he called me again and said, "forget what I said the first time, this is best thing you've ever did."

So, I was noticing that people actually have to get used to it. And at first that really frightened me, I was like oh-oh, is this going to get the chance ... like, like the people who don't know my music, are they going to give it a chance? And I realized that um ... well, like you said, you were listening at work and couldn't concentrate, you really had to sit down, and how are you going to listen to it? Are you going to listen to all the singers? The music? The composition? Are you gonna try to follow the lyrics? Are you gonna look in the book to see who's singing?? There's so much information here on this Ayreon release. Also, it works great, it's got songs, you know, there are no clear choruses. Not like ... okay this song's called "Smoke On The Water," you know. Okay, this song's called "Day Two: Isolation" ... okay, where's the chorus, you know? It's definitely an album you have to get used to, and ... especially if you've got open minded people, and it's definitely a thing you have to go through, not an album you just put on in the background, you know. Probably only irritating.

To my surprise, it's actually selling like crazy. And of course everyone is saying this in interviews about his own album, but I can prove it.

[At this point, I talk over Ayreon, as he's telling me that The Human Equation has charted highly on the Dutch Album Sales Chart Top 100 (MegaCharts) ... and looking at where it was on June 1 (two weeks before this interview) it was at #19; later in the month it was at #7, but um ... it's currently at #68. And, according to the Ayreon website, it "entered in the Dutch 'De Scherpe Rand' chart [?] at #15 [the end of May], logging only the first day of sales [as of June 1], The Human Equation has now gone up to #2 in it's second week!" It also the German charts at #50.]

So yeh, it's done really well.

SS: Oh good! I know there was a lot of anticipation, of course, and we published the John Bollenberg feature from your pre-release party, so we tried to wet people's appetite with that. And I think one of the first reviews--

AL: That was a pre-listening party, I think. The pre-release party.

SS: Right, right. So I know there's been a lot of anticipation for it, too. That's gotta make you feel good that people are like "okay, when's the next album!"

AL: That makes me really feel good, you know ... that a lot of people are liking it. On the one side it makes you feel good, you know, it makes you work pretty hard. And on the other side it makes me a bit nervous ... because when I started Ayreon, I was like big headed, you know. I wanted to write a rock opera in the 90s and everyone was laughing at me. And I was like no, I'll show you, I'll show you, you know. And everyone was looking over my shoulder. It was me just trying to prove something. And then suddenly, everyone was looking and everyone one was waiting to make judgment. And suddenly I, I ... yeh, it, it frightens me a little bit. And that one of the reasons why I do so many side projects, after the last Ayreon ... Ambeon, Star One, Star One tour, one DVD ... so it took like three or four years before I started this album.

SS: Right, right. Step away from it and let it --

AL: Right. [With the time away...] and now I can do it, I feel I can do a better album.

SS: Well, one of the questions I was going to ask and I thought, no? it might not go over well, but you kinda left it open. Um, you've done the metal with Star One, and part of Ayreon, and the ambient with Ambeon, so do we look for a country album?

[more laughter]

AL: I do some country stuff. On my solo album [Pools Of Sorrow, Waves Of Joy (1993), under the name Anthony] [starts singing "on the midnight train?"]. Uh, oh. There are some country influences in there [the new album], like the mandolin and stuff.

SS: Right. Um, now this question really covers all your releases, because they're all with casts. Do you plan your characters around the people you want have working on it, or get it ready and then find people that fit?

AL: Um, if I did that, I would be limited. I do it the other way around. First I start writing the music, then I come with a theme, and think, well, which character is going to fit this story. And uh, well, as it's about emotions, I start looking for emotional singers. So I want someone that sings emotions. Like I wanted a sweet voice like Heather Findlay, I wanted a totally over-the-top singer like Devin Townsend. I was looking for extreme emotional voices. Once I get them, I write a lyric for the singer. All the characters of the singer. As I said, Heather's got this lovely voice, lovely charisma, so okay, she'll be the emotion Love. And Devin Townsend's this crazy guy so he'll be Rage. And so of course, if I were to have the characters first, I would have been limited. I would have had to look for a singer that would fit the character ... rather than the other way around.

SS: Did you enjoy working, well, in this case mostly a different set of characters from before [though I meant actors], did you enjoy working with them this time out and did their involvement change your story in any way?

AL: Did it change the story? Hmm ... that's a good a question. Hmm. Uh, yeh, I think so, because I chose the characters from their charactry, you know? So um, it's like, uh ... let's say... if Eric Clayton [Savior Machine] hadn't been there, I wouldn't have had the character of Reason. So that, that influences the story, of course. And ... but, musically, uh ... because I left the singers very free ... I gave them my guide vocal and I always tell them like, "please, sing it your way, and if you want to change anything about the lyric..." With those things the character changes. And I flew all the singers out to my studio. I think it's very important to me, because it's about emotion. They have to be standing next to me, they have to understand the story, they have to understand motivations in their song. You have to work together to get a good feel going. And I learned through the years to get a good result you have to let singers go free, you know. Let them do whatever they want. That's why I asked them, of course.

SS: Your style is very theatrical, even from the first Ayreon album; was that deliberate or did it develop out of working on that first Ayreon release?

AL: I'm not sure what you mean?

SS: Well, um ... the whole very theatrical style that is the Ayreon style. Did you plan ... start out with that --

AL: I think so. I think because... before that I'd been in metal bands for 15 years and, so yeh, I was trying to get this theatrical thing going, you know. I love all that stuff and I the first time I heard Jesus Christ Superstar as a kid, it was like watching a movie without pictures and I was like "woah!" I loved it, you know. And also Tommy by The Who, you know. The whole the story. Loads of stuff, like Journey To The Center Of The Earth and all that stuff.

But I always wanted to do a theatrical stuff. But when you're in a metal band of course you're limited because five people in the band, um, you've got no keyboards... you're limited. And I wanted to go over-the-top, you know? Literally. I wanted to make an album that people would either hate or love. Especially that's what I'm looking for. If people think "oh, that's nice, nice little record," it's like "aghh!" Either you hate it, or love it. And you get those extremes with the characters like the ones I just mentioned. They have their own style, you know; have somebody grumpy here and then totally have a beautiful violin solo over there.

SS: I was... in a way, hearing Devin as Rage is somewhat a different element for your album. I mean, maybe not, well yeh, even as an album, because I don't think you went that way with Star One?

AL: No, no... still melodic, yeh.

SS: And anybody listening to it is still going, even though there's ... it's somewhat different in that there's more ... [a] down to earth [feel] in the story. There are still elements people will recognize from Ayreon past ... there's Irene Jansen's voice in there ... so I think ... that'll ... people will be attracted to that.

AL: It's still got the typical Ayreon style.

SS: Right

AL: I think in a way this album is like it's got a little bit of every Ayreon album I've made. It's still got the bombastic stuff of the first album, the electronic stuff of the second album, the dialog singing of The Electric Castle, the ambient stuff of Dream Sequencer, the heavy stuff of Flight Of The Migrator. I think it's kinda of a compilation of what I did. But I added to it a little extra, like Devin ... different singers, making it fresh, you know. But also used the seven-stringed guitar, where you have this nu-metal sound. I also used great classical musicians like violins, cello, flute ... all these of instruments. Kinda like a new twist.

SS: Right. Bringing it ? there's that familiar and yet its definitely you, yet a progression from the last album.

AL: Well that's good to hear. That's why it's progressive music.

SS: Yes. [more chuckles] Who would you love to have part of your project that hasn't been already?

AL: Alice Cooper; he's my all-time hero. I saw him a couple days ago again at the Arrow Rock Festival here in Holland. Lots of bands were playing from the 60s, actually 70s and 80s, like UFO, Bad Company ? all these bands. And most of the bands I saw it looked like "yeh, we're playing like we were in the 80s or 70s," you know, and now it's like, "yeh, I don't like as much anymore as I used to." But when I saw like Alice Cooper again and he had this all young band of punks, I enjoyed it so much, and he's got it, and he's very energetic and stuff. I was like "yeh, he's still got that humour," you know. And... and ... yeh, that would be a dream come true. Having him on an album. Of course, he's not a major singer or anything, but I'd also like work with people like Ronnie James Dio. And people I grew up with like David Gilmour, Ian Anderson on flute, you know, or Jon Anderson [Yes] or ... so many ... that would be a dream come true, you know, to work with people like that. There also a new talent?

SS: That's the one thing I would say is, you really do have amazing vocalists. You know, and James LaBrie ... who seems to be getting parts in lots of people's projects. Uh, ... so ... um ... well, I sorta lost track of my question there... [embarrassed chuckle and then a quiet, short "argh!"] So uh, I'll move on and maybe it come back to me.

AL: Okay.

SS: What inspired you to pick up music?

AL: Music has always been a part of my life. It always has been, from the day I was born, I grabbed everything I could and used it as an instrument. I grew up in the 60s, so The Beatles have been my biggest influence, you know. The amount of times I've played Revolver and Rubber Soul and ... later on Sgt. Pepper... and The White Album ... I've always been music crazy, I've always wanted to hear everything I could. And then the glit -- glam rock period came out with Sweet, David Bowie and ... and all these bands. And... I wanted to dress up and act crazy on stage and stuff like that [laughter]. And wear my mother's make up [more laughter] ... Uh oh!

SS: Uh oh!

AL: I got over it! [more laughter]I loved it [music] so much, but I was too lazy to learn an instrument. So I, um, actually started to play in a playback [cover] band [The Flying Potatoes ] and uh it was dreadful! We toured a lot of schools and doing, uh "Crazy Horses" by the Osmonds, stuff like that. And uh, we had a lot of success. And like, older people came up to me -- I think I was like 14 at the time -- a lot of people came up to me, "Hey, man, that stuff's for sissies" -- you know the Osmonds and stuff. And they gave me Made In Japan by Deep Purple. And then I heard Blackmore and I thought "hey man, no more playback for me." Yeh, I played "Smoke On The Water," ... you know how it goes. And uh... it was definitely Ritchie Blackmore that inspired me to pick up the guitar. And then of course all those great bands... Black Sabbath, ... Pink Floyd, of course. There's always been music.

SS: [Interupting Arjen, again] You can definitely - I mean on the past releases... Well, I noticed as I was listening to for the umpteenth time to The Human Element, that uh -- excuse me The Human Equation - that uh you can still hear there's a sense of The Beatles. I think there's uh, one point when the Friend is -- you -- singing that ... about childhood, I think it was, going back [looking the protagonist and friend's childhood] has a very 60s feel to it. ["Day Two: Isolation"] And you can still hear elements of Pink Floyd in there, too, so?

AL: Yes. Well I don't hide my influences. I hear a lot of bands going "No, we're not influenced by them at all, no, no." And I'm like, "dang man, it's obvious, why hide it," you know? Of course, I'm not trying to copy Fish.

SS: No, I think that's--

AL: -- They influenced me and I'm not going to hide it. I'm going to let it influence me. But, I'm definitely not going to do a carbon copy. I'm definitely going to [take those influences] and mix it with a lot of others sounds that I like. Just because my musical style is so wide ... I can do it, I can combine Simon and Garfunkle with Opeth or, or... Pink Floyd with Emerson, Lake and Palmer. And if you do that, something new comes out in the end, you know. And of course you've got your own style. At least I hope so [we both chuckle]. I mean, that's what The Beatles were doing, you know. They lived in Liverpool. All these American soul artists usually came in, in Liverpool and I heard Chuck Berry, I heard Little Richard and that's what they tried to do. It turned out as The Beatles.

I mean, if you copy a band so well, that's sad, you know. Then, you get the carbon copy and people'll say, "hey you sound great, you sound just like Led Zeppelin." And they ... and then you're here today, go away yesterday. Luckily I'm not that good in copying [more chuckles from both].

SS: Nobody gets that feeling -- [me talking over Arjen again]

AL: Luckily, I have my own style and --

SS: I think what people get is, is just an "influenced by," or that a tip of the hat kind of thing, where you can see it, but it's ... I never thought "here's his version of..."

AL: No, I hope not.

SS: No, no.

AL: Though I have to tell you that in "Day Two" there's this little part, that when I was finished, that really reminded me a lot of "On The Run" by Pink Floyd. But I couldn't change it because it was finished ... that when I thought maybe I'd gone too far. But it wasn't intentional. Because the crazy thing is, this part is like a [something, a brand I think, that sounded like "six-sided"] synthesizer. So it was actually done on the only new synthesizer ... brand new synthesizer that I bought. [The sound is garbled here, but Arjen explains that having bought this new synth, he really needed to use it on something, instead of using just all the mini-Moog. And the irony is a new synth produced a classic sound.]

SS: So, moving kinda away from music, what hobby or interest would surprise fans?

AL: I don't think it will surprise any of the fans that I love watching DVDs. Uh, I love jogging. Unfortunately, I've got a bad back that I twisted cycling ... which is great, too, you know. [Meaning the cycling, of course]. I really cycle for only two hours... like uh, 40 km, 40-50 km. I'm really, really tired, you know. I take a little stroll here at home and I ... I swim a little bit. And I watch ... watch a DVD. Any good DVD, it doesn't have to be science-fiction or horror. And uh ... I guess basically that's the only thing I do beside music.

SS: I know you got horses there...

AL: Oh, they're my wife's.

SS: Your wife's, ah.

AL: I like watching them, but not riding them or anything. I do like cats. I'm a big cat lover. Yeh, we had 10 cats.

SS: Ten? Wow!

AL: Unfortunately, they're slowly, mysteriously disappearing. I'm not sure what's happening to them. We live in the middle of a forest; I don't know what's happening but there's like six left now. But um, I love cats so much. You could hardly call them a hobby.

SS: No, that's more like a job. I have a cat, one, and it's more a job. Catering to them. [Make no mistake, I love my cat* ... ]

AL: That's probably just how they like it.

SS: [chuckle] So will there be another Star One release I the future?

AL: I never plan anything, so I've no idea. Never say never. I really enjoyed that album. I enjoyed making it. It's much easier for me to do Star One than Ayreon because I've been playing metal for 15 years, as I said. I've grown up with guitar and out come riffs, and Star One is based on guitar riffs. While Ayreon is based on melodies and chord progressions and stuff like that, which is much harder. So um ... yeh, a Star One album is easy and it's enjoyable, so uh ... I guess probably I'd do another one. I'm not sure that's going to be the next thing that I do. It's definitely not going to be another Ayreon, because I definitely need a vacation from Ayreon. It was like a year of really hard work ... day in and day out.

SS: I can imagine, yeh...

AL: ... and getting all the singers together. All the logic ... that's the horrible side of doing an Ayreon album.

SS: Yeh, because all of them are with active bands, that are recording their own work.

AL: Definitely bands like Opeth and Dream Theater, who are touring constantly. To find a window to get them here, and I wanted to get them here... that was the rule, it has to be here.

SS: That's... one can tell, I mean, they're not just "phoning it in." You can tell they must have been there at the same time and...

AL: Sure you can tell. I'm sure that people feel that. They feel how much emotion went into that. I'm sure they feel that it wasn't done by the Internet or ... It was done with the emotion.

SS: I think that will probably be - well, that's what we are. And I think what you get at even with the album, is that we are emotional beings. Running that whole gamut from ... I don't know... love to rage. So ... um ... any live shows planned for Ayreon? You mentioned taking a break, so I'm guessing not.

AL: As I said, getting them over for one day was hard. Getting everyone together for a show would be impossible. So, ... even if you take like 11 unknown singers -- which I would never do -- you'd still have to fly them all in to rehearse for a couple of weeks, and um ... well, imagine having like 20 people in a band ... you have all the cost of hotels and food and stuff like that. Arranging everything ... tour managers?

SS: So if anything, it would be like a one-off thing for like a DVD kind of thing where --

AL: Well, even a one-off thing would mean weeks of rehearsals. If you do that for a few weeks, you've got to do like a whole tour to earn it back. So ... not even a one-off. It's ... just ... a shame... but with a tour, it would become even bigger, you know ... and I don't think that's what I want. I think it's big enough. I get loads of emails every day from fans whose lives are actually changing. That's such a great feeling. That's all I need, I don't need more.

SS: You hope that people come away from listening to this CD, at least, maybe look at themselves and saying, "hey, what am I doing ... how am I treating people?"

AL: Yeh, I've had emails from people who had that feeling. "You've helped me make some changes here," "I've been worried too much about money, about career." "You were right, I remembered I wanted to be an actor and I didn't do it. I'm thinking of taking some classes again?" Really, I got a couple of emails ... I also got two emails from people who had actually been in a coma and they said, "You got it right. Actually, it's a lot like that. I woke up ... and I really had the feeling that I had been battling with my emotions. I didn't know whether I was alive or ..." And that he said that, of course, I don't believe that if someone's in a coma like this guy said he was ... that he had like a different experience each day, you know. I think that maybe at the moment he woke up he got like a couple of seconds of thought and maybe he thought that those were the dreams he had in ... just like in "Day Fourteen." I don't know, actually.

SS: It's hard. Even when you're dreaming and you think something that's happening ... you wake up and think they've been real.

AL: Yeh.

The communications portal closes ... e.g. the conversation ends ... and we each go our separate ways.

On July 19, the second single from The Human Equation was released, "Loser." A reworked version of the song from the album, which, according to the official website, "Joost van den Broek (ex-Sun Caged, After Forever) and Arjen Lucassen battle it out in a true to form keyboard vs. guitar duel with electric violin from Robert Baba thrown in for good measure. Also Peter Vink (Star One) recorded all new bass guitar especially for the single. And Ed Warby added some extra 'zing' to his performance also." The single also includes a cover of Alice Cooper's "How You Gonna See Me Now" (Arjen, w/Mike Baker), "Into The Black Hole" (recorded live this past April) and a special acoustic version of "Castle Hall," with Ewa Albering on flute, Dewi Kerstens on cello, and Irene Jansen on vocals.

Many thanks to Al Stavola of Chipster Entertainment for arranging this interview.

photos: courtesy Arjen Lucassen or © John Bollenberg, as noted.

Discography:
Ayreon - The Final Experiment (1995)
Ayreon - Actual Fantasy (1996)
Ayreon - Into The Electric Castle (1998)
Ayreon - The Univeral Migrator Part 1: The Dream Sequencer (2000)
Ayreon - The Universal Migrator Part 2: Flight Of The Migrator (2000)
Ayreon - Ayreonnauts Only
Ambeon - Fate Of A Dreamer (2001)
Arjen Anthony Lucassen's Star One - Space Metal (2002)
Arjen Anthony Lucassen's Star One - Live On Earth (2003)
Ayreon - The Human Equation (2004)
Ayreon - Actual Fantasy Revisited (2004)
Ayreon - The Final Experiment - Special Edition (2005)
Stream Of Passion - Embrace The Storm (2005)
Ayreon - 01011001 (2008)
Arjen Lucassen's Guilt Machine - Arjen Lucassen's Guilt Machine (2009)
Arjen Anthony Lucassen's Star One - Victims Of The Modern Age (2010)
Ayreon - The Theory Of Everything (2013)
The Gentle storm - The Diary (2015)